Treason toward a State

[RobertP]

I was watching a little of Ken Burns' Civil War last night, particularly the part about John Brown. The US turned him over to Virginia to be tried for treason against the State. I have always thought of treason as a Federal crime and wonder if laws like that still on the States' books. Today that case would have been tried in military or federal court. It just struck me that the State-Federal relationship was indeed very different, with the States having a much stronger hand in their internal affairs.

 

[brass napoleon]

Excellent question. I'm sure we'll get some good answers. Since he attacked a federal armory, it would seem to me the federal government should have jurisdiction.

 

[prroh]

I was watching a little of Ken Burns' Civil War last night, particularly the part about John Brown. The US turned him over to Virginia to be tried for treason against the State. I have always thought of treason as a Federal crime and wonder if laws like that still on the States' books. Today that case would have been tried in military or federal court. It just struck me that the State-Federal relationship was indeed very different, with the States having a much stronger hand in their internal affairs.

Brown was tried for treason against the Commonwealth of VA., Inciting slaves to insurrection and murder. he was found guilty on all three counts. The treason charge was the only one which a spirited challenge occurred . The court ruled that treason meant waging war against the state whether or not the person was a resident.

The Yale Law School Avalon project gives an excellent account of the proceedings, including a discussion of the treason charge in greater detail.:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/john_brown.asp

Federal authorities appeared only too glad to have VA Governor Henry Wise, future CSA General and Bro-in-law of Gen G G Meade, take this political hot potato off their hands. If tried by the Feds it would have been a political show trial.

An interesting side effect to the John brown affair is that fear of a large slave rebellion caused the states of the south to revive the militia system which had deteriorated. The newly equipped and trained southern militia gave the CSA a larger pool of reasonably trained and equipped troops than the Northern militias were capable, early in the war.

 

[dvrmte]

Brown was tried for treason against the Commonwealth of VA., Inciting slaves to insurrection and murder. he was found guilty on all three counts. The treason charge was the only one which a spirited challenge occurred . The court ruled that treason meant waging war against the state whether or not the person was a resident.

The Yale Law School Avalon project gives an excellent account of the proceedings, including a discussion of the treason charge in greater detail.:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/john_brown.asp

Federal authorities appeared only too glad to have VA Governor Henry Wise, future CSA General and Bro-in-law of Gen G G Meade, take this political hot potato off their hands. If tried by the Feds it would have been a political show trial.

An interesting side effect to the John brown affair is that fear of a large slave rebellion caused the states of the south to revive the militia system which had deteriorated. The newly equipped and trained southern militia gave the CSA a larger pool of reasonably trained and equipped troops than the Northern militias were capable, early in the war.

South Carolina had militia or minute men prior to the John Brown affair. Some lingered on after the Revolution but the tariff disputes reinvigorated militias especially in the low country. The John Brown affair saw the lightly slave populated up country raise more militias.

 

[prroh]

South Carolina had militia or minute men prior to the John Brown affair. Some lingered on after the Revolution but the tariff disputes reinvigorated militias especially in the low country. The John Brown affair saw the lightly slave populated up country raise more militias.

I never said there were no militia units in the US, just that the practice had slipped considerablyy and the Brown affair revived it in the south.

 

[dvrmte]

I never said there were no militia units in the US, just that the practice had slipped considerablyy and the Brown affair revived it in the south.

I didn't mean it as a correction, I just added to your comment.

 

[prroh]

I didn't mean it as a correction, I just added to your comment.

Were there "Minute men " organizations in SC that were distinct from the militia? Since you said the lowlands, i assumed they were available at the first signs of a slave revolt, whereas militia needed to called out by the Governor.

 

[dvrmte]

Were there "Minute men " organizations in SC that were distinct from the militia? Since you said the lowlands, i assumed they were available at the first signs of a slave revolt, whereas militia needed to called out by the Governor.

You assumed correctly. The "Minute Men" weren't regulated like the militia. They were mostly used for slave patrols and marching and drilling in support of secession. It gave the yeoman farmer a chance to intermingle with the planter class. It also served to intimidate those who didn't share the same opinions.

 

[Gardensnake]

I think some of it was also the mind set back then. At that time the states were thought of differently by a large number of people. The states were more independent back then than they are now. Today the staes are allowed some differing laws but for the most part are completely subordinate to the federal government. Back in the time of the civil war to alot of people the state came first.

William

 

[Nathanb1]

Excellent question. I'm sure we'll get some good answers. Since he attacked a federal armory, it would seem to me the federal government should have jurisdiction.

Well, technically he never got to the armory proper, did he? Killing the baggage-master would have also been an earlier crime. IMHO, Virginia had jurisdiction.

 

[ole]

We've discussed this question before and couldn't come to a concemsis. I think the best explanation is that the Federal Government was happy to let Virginia do the prosecution -- which also explains why there was little pursuit of Brown's backers.

 

[ole]

Well, technically he never got to the armory proper, did he? Killing the baggage-master would have also been an earlier crime. IMHO, Virginia had jurisdiction.

Although Brown didn't get to the armory, that was clearly his objective. "Clearly his objective" makes a weak case for the Feds. If his band of dreary men had gotten to the armory, it would be an invasion of military property by a civilian. If he'd shot a guard in the attempt, maybe the Feds wouldn't have let Virginia handle it.

 

[prroh]

Although Brown didn't get to the armory, that was clearly his objective. "Clearly his objective" makes a weak case for the Feds. If his band of dreary men had gotten to the armory, it would be an invasion of military property by a civilian. If he'd shot a guard in the attempt, maybe the Feds wouldn't have let Virginia handle it.

The firehouse they forted up in was federal property as part of the arsenal and a marine was killed in performance of his official duty, Kidnapping,crossing state line to incite insurrection are some of the other Federal laws violated.

 

[BillO]

The firehouse they forted up in was federal property as part of the arsenal and a marine was killed in performance of his official duty, Kidnapping,crossing state line to incite insurrection are some of the other Federal laws violated.

I wasn't aware that the firehouse was part of the arsenal complex.

 

[prroh]

I wasn't aware that the firehouse was part of the arsenal complex.

The present location is about 70 yards from where the firehouse originally stood. It was more obviously in line with the remaining foundations line of the arsenal buildings. The building had been taken apart and put on exhibition in several places before returning to harpers Ferry.

 

[prroh]

Well, technically he never got to the armory proper, did he? Killing the baggage-master would have also been an earlier crime. IMHO, Virginia had jurisdiction.

Since the firehouse was federal property and part of the arsenal property, I would say he entered federal property. Whether he got into the armory, I don't know. An arsenal is where guns are manufactured, . An armory is where they are stored. (or is it the other way around/)