The Virginians - What If

[MikeyB]

Which counterfactual has a bigger impact on the war versus history:
Lee for the Union
Thomas for the Confederacy

 

[Jamieva]

Lee and it is not even close

 

[JeffBrooks]

Lee and it is not even close

Either is a massive change and potentially alters the outcome of the war, but I agree that Lee for the Union would be much the bigger.

 

[Sheltowee]

Interesting.

But wasn't Thomas just a corps commander? So are we putting Lee in command of the AotP- and Thomas as one of Bragg's subordinates?

Thomas in command of the Army of Tennessee is intriguing. He might very well whip Buell in Kentucky.

Not sure Davis would've promoted him though.

 

[jackt62]

Yes, Lee for the Union would have been a larger impact than Thomas for the Confederacy. It's easier to speculate about Lee because he indeed was offered command of the main federal army (presumably being the AotP). Therefore, we can say with some confidence that the strategic and tactical course of the war in 1861-62 would have been very different than what occurred under McClellan.

 

[jackt62]

But wasn't Thomas just a corps commander? So are we putting Lee in command of the AotP- and Thomas as one of Bragg's subordinates?

Actually, Thomas succeeded Rosecrans as commander of the Army of the Cumberland. Nevertheless, if Thomas had chosen to fight for the south, his pre-war ranking would not have gotten him a spot in the general rank category that Davis announced at the outbreak of war. As the Confederacy lacked a corps organization at first, Thomas would probably have attained a division command under either AS Johnston in the west, or Joe Johnston in the east.

 

[Library Lady]

Please pardon this person who wastes too much of her time reading fiction and things that aren't even Civil War, but what exactly would Lee have been doing if he'd stayed loyal and accepted command of Union forces?

Would he have taken Winfield Scott's place pretty much immediately? If yes, would that have been before or after the Anaconda Plan was formulated by Scott?

Would he have commanded an Army of the Potomac that was constituted sooner and without McClellan?

Would he have commanded at Bull Run instead of McDowell? If yes and it turned out as badly as it did in real life, would he have been demoted and under a cloud because he was from Virginia?

In real life, Lee spent a lot of time fortifying the Richmond area, thus the nicknames Granny Lee and King of Spades. Would he have done the same for Washington or would his more aggressive temperament (compared to McClellan) have come to the fore sooner? I'm trying to understand how he'd balance Lincoln's desire to protect DC vs Lincoln's desire for the Army of the Potomac to get a move on and kick some Confederate tail. How does Lee get through that beginning mess to the point where the talents he showed in real life with the Army of Northern Virginia kick in for the Army of the Potomac?

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

Please pardon this person who wastes too much of her time reading fiction and things that aren't even Civil War, but what exactly would Lee have been doing if he'd stayed loyal and accepted command of Union forces?

Would he have taken Winfield Scott's place pretty much immediately? If yes, would that have been before or after the Anaconda Plan was formulated by Scott?

Would he have commanded an Army of the Potomac that was constituted sooner and without McClellan?

Would he have commanded at Bull Run instead of McDowell? If yes and it turned out as badly as it did in real life, would he have been demoted and under a cloud because he was from Virginia?

In real life, Lee spent a lot of time fortifying the Richmond area, thus the nicknames Granny Lee and King of Spades. Would he have done the same for Washington or would his more aggressive temperament (compared to McClellan) have come to the fore sooner? I'm trying to understand how he'd balance Lincoln's desire to protect DC vs Lincoln's desire for the Army of the Potomac to get a move on and kick some Confederate tail. How does Lee get through that beginning mess to the point where the talents he showed in real life with the Army of Northern Virginia kick in for the Army of the Potomac?

Another question is if he would even command in Virginia. I've seen a few people point out the possibility that he might request to command out west instead (probably Tennessee) that way he wouldn't have to fight against Virginia directly.

 

[NedBaldwin]

... Nevertheless, if Thomas had chosen to fight for the south, his pre-war ranking would not have gotten him a spot in the general rank category that Davis announced at the outbreak of war. As the Confederacy lacked a corps organization at first, Thomas would probably have attained a division command under either AS Johnston in the west, or Joe Johnston in the east.

In terms of pre-war ranking, Thomas was ahead of Longstreet and Jackson, either of the Hills, Van Dorn, EK Smith, GW Smith, Huger, ... so no reason he could not be among that crowd a year or so into the war

 

[jackt62]

In terms of pre-war ranking, Thomas was ahead of Longstreet and Jackson, either of the Hills, Van Dorn, EK Smith, GW Smith, Huger, ... so no reason he could not be among that crowd a year or so into the war

My initial thought was that Thomas' ranking as major in comparison to Lee and Johnston's higher rankings in the 2nd Cavalry would have put him out of contention in the first go-around. A second run of senior appointments is another matter of course.

 

[JeffBrooks]

My initial thought was that Thomas' ranking as major in comparison to Lee and Johnston's higher rankings in the 2nd Cavalry would have put him out of contention in the first go-around. A second run of senior appointments is another matter of course.

If I recall correctly, the officers of the 2nd cavalry were handpicked by Secretary of War Jefferson Davis, to the point where some believe he was putting Southern officers in places where they could gain useful experience if a civil war ever erupted (more likely, he was just showing favoritism to his region). So George Thomas was placed with the 2nd Cavalry because Jefferson Davis wanted him to be there. That would certainly give him a leg-up on Longstreet and others.

Keep in mind: Leonidas Polk never held a rank higher than lieutenant in the U.S. Army, and Jefferson Davis made him a major general right off the bat.