F. Douglass The Lincoln-Douglass relationship

Henry Whitworth

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Oct 21, 2013
There's a new article up in the New York Times' Disunion series on the Civil War. This one examines the view Frederick Douglass had of President Lincoln and how that changed over time. One favorite part for me was Douglas' humorous and evocative description of his first meeting with the President:

"On my approach he slowly drew his feet in from the different parts of the room into which they had strayed, and he began to rise, and continued to rise until he looked down upon me, and extended his hand and gave me a welcome."


I think that's a dynamite little piece of writing.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/how-douglass-came-around-to-lincoln/?_r=0
 
That's hilarious. But Douglass' writing is like that. It's dense and abstract, in the verbose style of the 19th century, but powerful and often amusing.

Lincoln and Douglass both came to respect each other, and to recognize that they had shared (if not completely aligned) goals that they could work together on. But that came later; when Lincoln was first elected, Douglass publicly wondered whether the victory of the Republican Party, with its insistence that it would not interfere with slavery where it already existed, would be the death of the true abolitionist movement.
 
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That's hilarious. But Douglass' writing is like that. It's dense and abstract, in the verbose style of the 19th century, but powerful and often amusing.

Lincoln and Douglass both came to respect each other, and to recognize that they had shared (if not completely aligned) goals that they could work together on. But that came later; when Lincoln was first elected, Douglass publicly wondered whether the victory of the Republican Party, with its insistence that it would not interfere with slavery where it already existed, would be the death of the true abolitionist movement.

I think trying to understand the way Douglass' perception of Lincoln changed over time can be very instructional for understanding what Lincoln was up against politically and how he moved in his views of what was possible. Just as a lot of people today want Lincoln to be clear-cut at all points on his view of slavery, his contemporaries wanted the same. When he came to office his opponents tried to pigeonhole him as a dyed in the wool Radical Abolitionist even as the actual Abolitionists were decrying him for not embracing their cause. But, of course, if he had always done that he never would have been in a position to accomplish what he did. I get the impression that Frederick Douglass came to understand, very clearly, the path that Lincoln was on.
 
Douglas's initial feelings make this all the more lofty a compliment: "Had he put the abolition of slavery before the salvation of the Union, he would have inevitably driven from him a powerful class of the American people and rendered resistance to rebellion impossible. Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined. Though Mr. Lincoln shared the prejudices of his white fellow-countrymen against the negro, it is hardly necessary to say that in his heart of hearts he loathed and hated slavery." - Frederick Douglas.
 
Unfortunately that article omits a fact, which might have changed its conclusion: F. Douglass supported Fremont and not Lincoln in the election of 1864...
 
Unfortunately that article omits a fact, which might have changed its conclusion: F. Douglass supported Fremont and not Lincoln in the election of 1864...

It's a bit more complicated than that.

[begin quote]
Douglass wavered in the spring of 1864 when anti-Lincoln radicals gathered at Cleveland to nominate an alternative to President Lincoln. Larry E. Nelson wrote: "Frederick Douglas, believing that the proposed assembly was in the best interest of his race, publicly supported the convention call." 39 But after the convention nominated General John C. Frémont — support, Douglass restrained his support. "During the summer of 1864, with the war in a bloody stalemate in Virginia, he maintained his criticism of the Lincoln administration, giving every sign that he would work against the president's reelection in the fall. But in August, Lincoln invited Douglass to the White House for an urgent meeting," wrote historian David W. Blight." 40 Before he visited with President Lincoln in August, Union Army chaplain John Eaton met with Douglass in Ohio: "My heart was heavy with the mistreatment and suffering of the Negroes in the conquered territory over which my supervision extended. Douglass and I had found much to talk about, and I was able to give Mr. Lincoln a fairly clear notion of his point of view. The Negro orator felt keenly that our measures of retaliation against cruelty to Negro soldiers were not sharp enough. When I had finished, the President asked if Mr. Douglass knew what he had written Governor Michael Hahn about Negro suffrage." The President then took his March letter to Hahn out and read it to Eaton."
"When he had finished reading, the President of the United States and the greatest man of his time asked me, with that curious modesty characteristic of him, if I thought Mr. Douglass could be induced to come to see him. I replied that I rather thought he could. It was soon arranged that Douglass should visit Washington and see the President."41
In August 19, 1864, the President met again with Frederick Douglass and recruited the former slave to help organize slave escapees as volunteer recruits for the Union Army. A few days later, Douglass wrote the President: "all with whom I have thus far spoken on the subject, concur in the wisdom and benevolence of the idea, and some of them think it is practicable. That every slave who escapes from the Rebel States is a loss to the Rebellion and a gain to the Loyal Cause I need not stop to argue; the proposition is self evident. The negro is the stomach of the rebellion." 42
Eaton remembered: "Immediately after the interview I called upon Douglass, and found him pacing the long, old-fashioned parlors in a state of extreme agitation. He did not know that I was in Washington, and greeted me in surprise; but nothing could distract his mind for long from that interview. 'I have just come from President Lincoln,' he said, making no attempt to suppress his excitement. 'He treated me as a man; he did not let me feel for a moment that there was any difference in the color of our skins! The President is a most remarkable man. I am satisfied now that he is doing all that circumstances will permit him to do. He asked me a number of questions, which I am preparing to answer in writing,' and he pointed to the writing materials on a table near him. There was never any doubt afterwards of Mr. Douglass's enthusiastic regard for the President."43
[end quote]
http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org...aries/abraham-lincoln-and-frederick-douglass/
 
Unfortunately that article omits a fact, which might have changed its conclusion: F. Douglass supported Fremont and not Lincoln in the election of 1864...

What "conclusion" does that change?

Douglass supported Fremont for the Republican nomination but he supported Lincoln in the election. Is that really an omission in the context of this article?

The article begins:
By December 1864, Frederick Douglass had become an admirer of the man he later called "our friend and liberator," and he savored President Lincoln's re-election the previous month. But Douglass's path to that admiration had been anything but direct.

It starts out by pointing out that it hadn't always been so and Douglass' admiration for Lincoln grew over time. December 1864 is after the election so the time Douglass supported Fremont for the nomination had already come and gone.
 
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It's a bit more complicated than that.

[begin quote]
Douglass wavered in the spring of 1864 when anti-Lincoln radicals gathered at Cleveland to nominate an alternative to President Lincoln. Larry E. Nelson wrote: "Frederick Douglas, believing that the proposed assembly was in the best interest of his race, publicly supported the convention call." 39 But after the convention nominated General John C. Frémont — support, Douglass restrained his support. "During the summer of 1864, with the war in a bloody stalemate in Virginia, he maintained his criticism of the Lincoln administration, giving every sign that he would work against the president's reelection in the fall. But in August, Lincoln invited Douglass to the White House for an urgent meeting," wrote historian David W. Blight." 40 Before he visited with President Lincoln in August, Union Army chaplain John Eaton met with Douglass in Ohio: "My heart was heavy with the mistreatment and suffering of the Negroes in the conquered territory over which my supervision extended. Douglass and I had found much to talk about, and I was able to give Mr. Lincoln a fairly clear notion of his point of view. The Negro orator felt keenly that our measures of retaliation against cruelty to Negro soldiers were not sharp enough. When I had finished, the President asked if Mr. Douglass knew what he had written Governor Michael Hahn about Negro suffrage." The President then took his March letter to Hahn out and read it to Eaton."
"When he had finished reading, the President of the United States and the greatest man of his time asked me, with that curious modesty characteristic of him, if I thought Mr. Douglass could be induced to come to see him. I replied that I rather thought he could. It was soon arranged that Douglass should visit Washington and see the President."41
In August 19, 1864, the President met again with Frederick Douglass and recruited the former slave to help organize slave escapees as volunteer recruits for the Union Army. A few days later, Douglass wrote the President: "all with whom I have thus far spoken on the subject, concur in the wisdom and benevolence of the idea, and some of them think it is practicable. That every slave who escapes from the Rebel States is a loss to the Rebellion and a gain to the Loyal Cause I need not stop to argue; the proposition is self evident. The negro is the stomach of the rebellion." 42
Eaton remembered: "Immediately after the interview I called upon Douglass, and found him pacing the long, old-fashioned parlors in a state of extreme agitation. He did not know that I was in Washington, and greeted me in surprise; but nothing could distract his mind for long from that interview. 'I have just come from President Lincoln,' he said, making no attempt to suppress his excitement. 'He treated me as a man; he did not let me feel for a moment that there was any difference in the color of our skins! The President is a most remarkable man. I am satisfied now that he is doing all that circumstances will permit him to do. He asked me a number of questions, which I am preparing to answer in writing,' and he pointed to the writing materials on a table near him. There was never any doubt afterwards of Mr. Douglass's enthusiastic regard for the President."43
[end quote]
http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org...aries/abraham-lincoln-and-frederick-douglass/

This is from the Lincoln Institute and it is biased. And when posted amid the following, it is hard to call it a serious source

  • Unlike Mr. Lincoln, who sometimes chafed under his economic obligations to his father until he was emancipated at age 21, Douglass emancipated himself. He gave himself the surname "Douglass" after escaping from slavery.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass operated somewhat above his "birth" class but nevertheless acted as a representative of that class with whom he was somewhat out of touch.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass was tall, but he carried himself with a more regal and dignified bearing.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he was proud of his physical strength and his erstwhile physical labors.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he was frequently disappointed in the pursuit of office.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglas understood the nature of northern racism. Douglass never wanted to be confined a particular role which white Northerners might want him to occupy. He wasn't content to a token Black. He believed in integration and he lived his beliefs frequently with great courage.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass had strong early experiences with the church, but his chagrin with the refusal of white churches to denounce slavery led to his detachment from his Methodist roots.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he understood that the North was far from blameless on issues of race and slavery. In one early speech, Douglass said: "Prejudice against color is stronger north than south; it hangs around my neck like a heavy weight."3
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he had impoverished childhood with considerable trauma and little formal education.
  • Unlike Mr. Lincoln who avoided most references to his childhood, Douglass made his childhood experiences with slavery the centerpiece of his speaking and writing.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass had a high opinion of his own abilities — which he tended to deprecate in public comments.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he was an accomplished mimic — but unlike Mr. Lincoln, most of his mimicry was used in speeches rather than story-telling.
  • Unlike Mr. Lincoln, Douglass encouraged his sons to join the Union Army — he was a leading proponent of the use of black soldiers. Douglass did, however, petition Mr. Lincoln to discharge a sick son from service. And, the Lincolns' eldest son Robert did join the Union Army in January 1865.
  • Unlike Abraham Lincoln, for whom male friendships were easiest, female friendships (with intellectually stimulating and strong women) were easiest for Frederick Douglass. Unlike the famously jealous Mary Todd Lincoln, Douglass's wife appears to have been very tolerant of her husband's female friends — especially considering that some women came to live with them for months or years. Douglass worked frequently and closely with representatives of the women's suffrage movement.
 
What "conclusion" does that change?

Douglass supported Fremont for the Republican nomination but he supported Lincoln in the election. Is that really an "omission" in the context of this article? Could you explain what you mean?

Douglass did not support Lincoln in the election for the nomination, because he thought that a radical abolitionist was a better choice. Of course, in the general election, he supported the lesser evil, according to him. That article makes it seem that Douglass and Lincoln were buddy-buddy, since 1863. They were not. And public words of politicians matter much less than their actions. And we know Douglass' actions.
 
There's a new article up in the New York Times' Disunion series on the Civil War. This one examines the view Frederick Douglass had of President Lincoln and how that changed over time. One favorite part for me was Douglas' humorous and evocative description of his first meeting with the President:

"On my approach he slowly drew his feet in from the different parts of the room into which they had strayed, and he began to rise, and continued to rise until he looked down upon me, and extended his hand and gave me a welcome."


I think that's a dynamite little piece of writing.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/how-douglass-came-around-to-lincoln/?_r=0

Yep. Mighty fine of Douglass to have the patience to stand there and watch him unwind!! :giggle:
 
This is from the Lincoln Institute and it is biased. And when posted amid the following, it is hard to call it a serious source

  • Unlike Mr. Lincoln, who sometimes chafed under his economic obligations to his father until he was emancipated at age 21, Douglass emancipated himself. He gave himself the surname "Douglass" after escaping from slavery.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass operated somewhat above his "birth" class but nevertheless acted as a representative of that class with whom he was somewhat out of touch.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass was tall, but he carried himself with a more regal and dignified bearing.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he was proud of his physical strength and his erstwhile physical labors.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he was frequently disappointed in the pursuit of office.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglas understood the nature of northern racism. Douglass never wanted to be confined a particular role which white Northerners might want him to occupy. He wasn't content to a token Black. He believed in integration and he lived his beliefs frequently with great courage.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass had strong early experiences with the church, but his chagrin with the refusal of white churches to denounce slavery led to his detachment from his Methodist roots.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he understood that the North was far from blameless on issues of race and slavery. In one early speech, Douglass said: "Prejudice against color is stronger north than south; it hangs around my neck like a heavy weight."3
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he had impoverished childhood with considerable trauma and little formal education.
  • Unlike Mr. Lincoln who avoided most references to his childhood, Douglass made his childhood experiences with slavery the centerpiece of his speaking and writing.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, Douglass had a high opinion of his own abilities — which he tended to deprecate in public comments.
  • Like Mr. Lincoln, he was an accomplished mimic — but unlike Mr. Lincoln, most of his mimicry was used in speeches rather than story-telling.
  • Unlike Mr. Lincoln, Douglass encouraged his sons to join the Union Army — he was a leading proponent of the use of black soldiers. Douglass did, however, petition Mr. Lincoln to discharge a sick son from service. And, the Lincolns' eldest son Robert did join the Union Army in January 1865.
  • Unlike Abraham Lincoln, for whom male friendships were easiest, female friendships (with intellectually stimulating and strong women) were easiest for Frederick Douglass. Unlike the famously jealous Mary Todd Lincoln, Douglass's wife appears to have been very tolerant of her husband's female friends — especially considering that some women came to live with them for months or years. Douglass worked frequently and closely with representatives of the women's suffrage movement.

Show what's wrong rather than making assertions about bias. You'll forgive me if I reject your judgment on what is or is not a serious source.

Douglass' flirtation with Fremont wasn't due to a lack of support for Lincoln specifically but rather a conviction that it was best for his movement.

"Faced with the possibility of a Democratic victory, Douglass convinced himself that the Republicans had to nominate someone with a sturdier antislavery backbone. Notwithstanding the faith he had recently expressed in Lincoln's unwavering commitment to emancipation, Douglass now professed to fear 'a slaveholding compromise' that would end the war before the war ended slavery. To prevent that from happening he joined forces with those hoping to replace Abraham Lincoln as the Republican Party's presidential nominee." [James Oakes, The Radical and the Republican: Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and the Triumph of Antislavery Politics, p. 226]

"Douglass had to know from the start how quixotic the effort to remove Lincoln was. But even if he took the move seriously, there was something different about 1864: He was engaging in a struggle for power within the Republican Party. He renewed his criticism of Lincoln in January, when the effort to replace him first got under way. But after Lincoln had secured the Republican nomination and--even more important--after the Democrats had nominated George B. McClellan as their presidential candidate in late August, Douglass made it clear that he strongly favored Lincoln's reelection. This was a far cry from 1860, when Douglass had withdrawn his support for Lincoln and voted instead for a radical third party candidate. For all the venom he spilled on Lincoln in the first six months of 1864, Douglass was now maneuvering within the Republican Party, something he had never done before." [Ibid. p. 228]

"Once again Douglass was impressed by Lincoln's sincerity and lack of pretension,. More important, he realized that all his ideas about reconstructing the defeated South would not mean much if the war ended with millions of blacks still enslaved. Douglass had already expressed concerns that the Emancipation Proclamation might not have freed all the slaves by the time the war ended. But once he saw how disturbed Lincoln was by the prospect of slavery's survival, Douglass's long-standing suspicions of the President's commitment to emancipation vanished. He saw in Lincoln 'a deeper moral conviction against slavery than I had ever seen before in anything spoken or written by him.' Only weeks earlier Douglass had denounced Lincoln as a man who did evil by choice and right by necessity. But he came away from his second meeting persuaded that Lincoln had issued the Emancipation Proclamation out of deep moral convictions, not 'merely as a necessity.'

"The second meeting changed forever the way Frederick Douglass viewed Abraham Lincoln, beginning with his position on the upcoming presidential election. In some measure, Douglass's revised sentiments had nothing to do with Lincoln. His Democratic opponent, McClellan, was committed to a military victory and the restoration of the Union, but he was not committed to emancipation. Worse still was the Democratic platform calling for immediate negotiations with the Confederacy with no stipulation that the South repudiate slavery as a precondition to truce. Here was the very nightmare that, Douglass now knew, he shared with Abraham Lincoln.

"At about the same time the Democrats nominated McClellan, William Lloyd Garrison provided Douglass with an occasion to explain his views on Lincoln. Somehow Garrison had gotten his hands on the letter to an English correspondent that Douglass had written the previous June; he published excerpts from the letter as part of his own never-ending campaign to impugn the character of Douglass the apostate. Duly embarrassed, Douglass was compelled to explain himself. He wrote that letter a long time ago, he said. It was 'flung off in haste.' It was not intended for publication. In any case, the circumstances had changed. Since he wrote that letter three months earlier, the Democrats had nominated McClellan to run against Lincoln on a peace platform. He admitted that his earlier remarks were borne of a desire to spur the nomination of the most ardent antislavery man possible. 'That possibility is now no longer conceivable,' Douglass wrote. A victory for McClellan and the Democrats 'would be the heaviest calamity of these years of war and blood.' Accordingly 'all hesitation ought to cease, and every man who wishes well to the slave and to the country should at once rally with all the warmth and earnestness of his nature to the support of Abraham Lincoln.'

"Beneath Douglass's embarrassment lay genuine conviction. He now knew, from firsthand knowledge, that Lincoln was resisting pressure to reach a slaveholding compromise and that the pressure was coming not merely from the Democrats but from Lincoln's fellow Republicans. ... Lincoln had to win this election, Douglass insisted, not simply to squelch the Democrats but to strengthen his hand against the appeasers in his own ranks." [Ibid., pp. 232-234]

As I said, the story isn't as simplistic as you would like it to be.
 
Douglass did not support Lincoln in the election for the nomination, because he thought that a radical abolitionist was a better choice. Of course, in the general election, he supported the lesser evil, according to him.

There wasn't an election for nomination. It was a convention. He didn't consider Lincoln as only the lesser evil. He was convinced by the second meeting he had with Lincoln, in August of 1864, that Lincoln's support was genuine and that he wouldn't waver in his commitment to end slavery. Douglass became an ardent supporter of Lincoln's because of that and because of the Democrats.

"The two men talked for hours, and by the end of their meeting they considered each other friends,." [John Stauffer, Giants: The Parallel Lives of Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln, p. 288]

At the end of August, when the Democrats nominated McClellan and wrote their platform, "Douglass shifted his support to Lincoln and Fremont abandoned his candidacy in order to unite Republicans." [Ibid., p. 291]

Lincoln and Douglass were indeed friends. "John Eaton considered Lincoln's friendship with Douglass a testament to the president's bipartisan diplomacy. One of the president's great skills, he said, was 'in handling the men who were inclined to find fault with his policy.' ... Douglass could befriend Lincoln because the president had finally converted to his abolition cause. He too had remained faithful to his principle of friendship, which depended upon a shared cause. The two men needed each other." [Ibid.]


That article makes it seem that Douglass and Lincoln were buddy-buddy, since 1863. They were not. And public words of politicians matter much less than their actions. And we know Douglass' actions.

That's your misreading of the article.
 
Lincoln and Douglass were indeed friends. "John Eaton considered Lincoln's friendship with Douglass a testament to the president's bipartisan diplomacy. One of the president's great skills, he said, was 'in handling the men who were inclined to find fault with his policy.' ... Douglass could befriend Lincoln because the president had finally converted to his abolition cause. He too had remained faithful to his principle of friendship, which depended upon a shared cause. The two men needed each other." [Ibid.]

What is your definition of friend?

As I recall, Lincoln and Douglass met 2-3 times in person. I don't think they had a correspondence/pen pal relationship, where they wrote to each other frequently.

I think it's fair to say they were friendly to each other, but did their relationship rise to "friendship?"

- Alan
 
What is your definition of friend?

As I recall, Lincoln and Douglass met 2-3 times in person. I don't think they had a correspondence/pen pal relationship, where they wrote to each other frequently.

I think it's fair to say they were friendly to each other, but did their relationship rise to "friendship?"

- Alan

They apparently considered each other as friends, so my definition isn't important in that instance--theirs is.
 
"I shall never forget the benignant expression of his face, the tearful look of his eye, the quiver in his voice, when [Lincoln] deprecated a resort to retaliatory measures."

--Frederick Douglass, during his visit to Lincoln to ask about revenge for the Fort Pillow massacre on April 12, 1864, in which black Union soldiers surrendered and were reportedly shot.

"How sad and strange the fate of this great and good man, the saviour of his country, the embodiment of human charity, whose heart, though strong, was as tender as a heart of childhood; who always tempered justice with mercy; who sought to supplant the sword with counsel of reason, to suppress passion by kindness and moderation; who had a sigh for every human grief and a tear for every human woe, should at last perish by the hand of a desperate assassin, against whom no thought of malice had ever entered his heart!"

--Frederick Douglass, as quoted by Colonel Alexander K. McClure in Lincoln's Yarns and Stories, 1904.

"For the first time in my life, and I suppose the first time in any colored man's life, I attended the reception of President Lincoln on the evening of the inauguration. As I approached the door, I was seized by two policemen and forbidden to enter. I said to them they were mistaken entirely in what they were doing, that if Mr. Lincoln knew that I was at the door he would order my admission, and I bolted in by them. On the inside, I was taken charge of by two other policemen, to be conducted as I supposed to the President, but instead of that they were conducting me out the window on a plank.

'Oh,' said I, 'this will not do, gentlemen,' and as a gentleman was passing in I said to him, 'Just say to Mr. Lincoln that Fred. Douglass is at the door.'

He rushed in to President Lincoln, and almost in less than half a minute I was invited into the East Room of the White House. A perfect sea of beauty and elegance, too, it was. The ladies were in very fine attire, and Mrs. Lincoln was standing there. I could not have been more than ten feet from him when Mr. Lincoln saw me; his countenance lighted up, and he said in a voice which was heard by all around; 'Here comes my friend Douglass.' As I approached him he reached out his hand, gave me a cordial shake, and said: 'Douglass, I saw you in the crowd today listening to my inaugural address. There is no man's opinion that I value more than yours; what do you think of it?' I said: 'Mr. Lincoln, I cannot stop here to talk with you, as there are thousands waiting to shake you by the hand'; but he said again: 'What did you think of it?' I said: 'Mr. Lincoln, it was a sacred effort,' and then I walked off. 'I am glad you like it,' he said. That was the last time I saw him to speak with him."

--From Allen Thorndike Rice, editor, Reminiscences of Abraham Lincoln by Distinguished Men of His Time, pp. 191-193.

Unionblue
 
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Why the difference in perspective? It's a genuine question. The Frederick Douglas of our era perhaps isn't seen as as strong a backer of Lincoln, while it does appear at least from quotes there was a good amount od respect there. I can see where a myth would be spun but where Lincoln is concerned why would one be required?

Again, just interested. Is it because the perspective tends to stop at Lincoln and all efforts towards ending slavery are attributed to him ( I mean in a wider sense, outside this forum ), with Douglas almost as ' support staff '? Both are so key although without Lincoln, that exact man at that exact time- could not have transpired as it did.

Of course, am a little disenchanted with Douglas because he could have been a little nicer to Harriet. Pretty crazy about Harriet ( off thread.... ).
 
They apparently considered each other as friends, so my definition isn't important in that instance--theirs is.

Oh c'mon Cash, you know to be more critical than that.

Lot's of people say lots of stuff that isn't true. Historians, journalists, etc, need to examine what people say to see if their statements make sense objectively.

As far as I know, the time that Lincoln and Douglass spent face to face can be counted in hours, not days. I do not believe they engaged in any extended correspondence with each other. They did not travel in the same circles, they did not hang out in the same places, etc.

Objectively, I think the two can be considered acquaintances, business associates, and political colleagues who were friendly with each during the time they met. Their relationship revolved solely around business (i.e., the business of politics, such as making policy) matters, and their time with each other can best be described as business meetings. I don't think they can objectively be described as friends, even if they might have used the word themselves.

- Alan
 
Oh c'mon Cash, you know to be more critical than that.

Lot's of people say lots of stuff that isn't true. Historians, journalists, etc, need to examine what people say to see if their statements make sense objectively.

As far as I know, the time that Lincoln and Douglass spent face to face can be counted in hours, not days. I do not believe they engaged in any extended correspondence with each other. They did not travel in the same circles, they did not hang out in the same places, etc.

Objectively, I think the two can be considered acquaintances, business associates, and political colleagues who were friendly with each during the time they met. Their relationship revolved solely around business (i.e., the business of politics, such as making policy) matters, and their time with each other can best be described as business meetings. I don't think they can objectively be described as friends, even if they might have used the word themselves.

- Alan

Lincoln said Douglas was his friend. We know that. We also know from John Eaton that Douglass considered Lincoln a friend as well as being a remarkable man. It's their definition, Alan, not mine, that counts as to why they considered each other as friends.
 
Lincoln said Douglas was his friend. We know that. We also know from John Eaton that Douglass considered Lincoln a friend as well as being a remarkable man. It's their definition, Alan, not mine, that counts as to why they considered each other as friends.

"It is an old and a true maxim, that a 'drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall.' So with men. If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend."

-The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln;
edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Temperance Address" (February 22, 1842), p. 273.
 
I'm not sure what that quote has to do with whether that friendship was sincere or not. Convincing someone you're their friend by being their friend is a pretty strong argument.
 

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