seboyle
First Sergeant
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2010
- Location
- Squamish, B.C.
Hi, this is my first attempt at starting a thread so bear with me. I haven't checked back through every thread to see if this has been addressed before so forgive me if it has.
First I have to say I was really pleased when I came across this site. I've spent way too much of my time arguing on places like YouTube with what appears to be a somewhat less educated bunch and it's nice to come across a site where people are so knowledgeable (and not only that, most of them can also spell!)
So, I'm interested in your collective wisdom as to what it is that you think 'Union' meant?
I have seen some posts in various discussions which seem to take the view that 'Union' simply means 'the nation'. i.e. Lincoln was all about preserving the United States as a single political entity (at least until the EP).
Do any of you think 'Union' meant more than this to Lincoln? Do any of you subscribe to other opinions about what 'Union' means. e.g. Does anyone agree that by preserving the Union Lincoln was actually aiming higher, so to speak, by attempting to preserve democracy, not just in the US but all around the world? (Follow up questions might be: If yes, did the US populace - Northern, Southern, other major players - 'get' this and did this affect why people fought?; If yes, was Lincoln deliberate in his use of the term 'Union' to appeal to national sentiment while perhaps hiding his true objective?)
I will confess that 'Union as democracy' has always been my view and here's some of my evidence to get things started:
"We must settle this question now, whether in a free government the minority have the right to break up the government whenever they choose. If we fail it will go far to prove the incapability of the people to govern themselves."
"This is essentially a People's contest. On the side of the Union, it is a struggle for maintaining in the world, that form, and substance of government, whose leading object is, to elevate the condition of men - to lift artificial weights from all shoulders - to clear the paths of laudable pursuit for all - to afford all, an unfettered start, and fair chance, in the race of life."
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.... that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
First I have to say I was really pleased when I came across this site. I've spent way too much of my time arguing on places like YouTube with what appears to be a somewhat less educated bunch and it's nice to come across a site where people are so knowledgeable (and not only that, most of them can also spell!)
So, I'm interested in your collective wisdom as to what it is that you think 'Union' meant?
I have seen some posts in various discussions which seem to take the view that 'Union' simply means 'the nation'. i.e. Lincoln was all about preserving the United States as a single political entity (at least until the EP).
Do any of you think 'Union' meant more than this to Lincoln? Do any of you subscribe to other opinions about what 'Union' means. e.g. Does anyone agree that by preserving the Union Lincoln was actually aiming higher, so to speak, by attempting to preserve democracy, not just in the US but all around the world? (Follow up questions might be: If yes, did the US populace - Northern, Southern, other major players - 'get' this and did this affect why people fought?; If yes, was Lincoln deliberate in his use of the term 'Union' to appeal to national sentiment while perhaps hiding his true objective?)
I will confess that 'Union as democracy' has always been my view and here's some of my evidence to get things started:
"We must settle this question now, whether in a free government the minority have the right to break up the government whenever they choose. If we fail it will go far to prove the incapability of the people to govern themselves."
Lincoln, quoted in John Hay's diary on what he said was the 'central idea' of the CW.
"This is essentially a People's contest. On the side of the Union, it is a struggle for maintaining in the world, that form, and substance of government, whose leading object is, to elevate the condition of men - to lift artificial weights from all shoulders - to clear the paths of laudable pursuit for all - to afford all, an unfettered start, and fair chance, in the race of life."
Lincoln, 1st message to Congress, July 4th 1861
We say we are for the Union. The world will not forget that we say this. We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free -- honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth.
Lincoln, message to Congress, Dec 1st 1862.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.... that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Lincoln, Gettysburg Address, Nov 19th 1863
With respect, it's over to you...
Bringing the