The CSA loses by winning?

[ultimate777]

What happens to the fugitive slave law in the USA if the CSA wins? I think slaves can be safe if they get to places like Ohio, Pennsylvani, and probably Kansas, and very likely anywhere that remains in the USA. I doubt the CSA gets very much if any of the western territory it wants. Or the Latin American, or Caribean.

 

[The Blue Ghost]

The CSA already had that banned in their constitution when they seceded in 1861. It didn't allow international and world slave trade or exportation. Plus, The CSA only got close to winning with their great generals and good armies, but overall, as we look at the war today, the south never had that great of a chance to win that war.

 

[tmh10]

In my opinion I think the south knew they couldn't win a long protracted war. They were intellegent men and could see that their best chance was a short war with a political solution. I think they thought that popular opinion would play in their favor and that was a close thing and almost worked. If McClellan had beat Lincoln in the election they would have got their way. That was the most devastating battle they lost.

 

[jgoodguy]

The CSA already had that banned in their constitution when they seceded in 1861. It didn't allow international and world slave trade or exportation. Plus, The CSA only got close to winning with their great generals and good armies, but overall, as we look at the war today, the south never had that great of a chance to win that war.

The CSA Constitution did not allow the importation of slaves from foreign sources, but they could be imported from US states. Export of slaves were not addressed.

Looking at the ACW as it happened, it was more problematical. Until Sherman won Atlanta, there was a significant chance that the Union voters would vote in a peace government. Politics can trump either military defeat or victory.

The border with the CSA is going to allow for fugitive slaves without the support of the Union to return them. OTOH the South will have a freer hand in efforts to stop fugitive slaves at the border. Instead of free travel between states, travel between the CSA and US will require passports and such.

The big problem is going to be that slavery is not going to be popular with the world as a political ideology. Cotton is going to lose its importance and the States Rights tendencies outside of war time emergencies is going to prevent the polices needed to prevent a collapse from being implemented. The best that I see is a quaint agriculture Country.

 

[unionblue]

I remember reading somewhere the phrase that the South lost on the battlefield only to win in the statehouses after the Civil War.

Anyone else hear something like that?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[tmh10]

I remember reading somewhere the phrase that the South lost on the battlefield only to win in the statehouses after the Civil War.

Anyone else hear something like that?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

I have heard that but can't recall the scource. This thread also reminded me of a quote from Shelby Foote, "The North fought that war with one hand tied behind their back"

 

[unionblue]

I have heard that but can't recall the scource. This thread also reminded me of a quote from Shelby Foote, "The North fought that war with one hand tied behind their back"

tmh10,

Now that I have had a moment to think about it, I think the phrase was, "The South lost the war, but won the peace."

Shelby Foote, loved that man on Ken Burns PBS series 'The Civil War' and all the little stories he had about certain individuals during it.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[tmh10]

tmh10,

Now that I have had a moment to think about it, I think the phrase was, "The South lost the war, but won the peace."

Shelby Foote, loved that man on Ken Burns PBS series 'The Civil War' and all the little stories he had about certain individuals during it.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

I can't remember where I saw it but I saw an interview with him as he told the story of visiting Nathan B Forrest's family and they let him hold the General's sword. He was one of my favorite writers and CW historians.

 

[James B White]

Now that I have had a moment to think about it, I think the phrase was, "The South lost the war, but won the peace."

That's true but only to the extent that the south (the old white south) got the best situation it could manage to obtain post-war, given that there were never going to be slaves again. A true victory, that resulted in slavery remaining, would present the problem of not having any northern assistance in returning runaways--not that there ever had been much enthusiasm for it.

 

[Dave Wilma]

I remember reading somewhere the phrase that the South lost on the battlefield only to win in the statehouses after the Civil War.

This is true. After 1876, the federal government readmitted the seceded states and then left them entirely alone. The country was tired of war and reconstruction and the Grant Administration's efforts toward black suffrage. There followed the Jim Crow laws including statutes that stripped children of slaves of voting rights. Segregation was enshrined in state law, went to the Supreme Court, and was affirmed in Plessy v. Ferguson. Any efforts to deal with lynchings at the federal level were blocked by Southern Democrats into the 1950s.

 

[Dave Wilma]

What happens to the fugitive slave law in the USA if the CSA wins? I think slaves can be safe if they get to places like Ohio, Pennsylvani, and probably Kansas, and very likely anywhere that remains in the USA. I doubt the CSA gets very much if any of the western territory it wants. Or the Latin American, or Caribean.

The FSL was U.S. law. Had the Confederacy somehow become a separate country the Republicans would have repealed the law and abolished slavery by constitutional amendment in the (reduced) United States. Slaves making it to free states or territories would be free and the Confederacy would have no recourse to recover the fugitives. Indeed, the acrimony would be so great between the sections that the Underground Railroad would become a mass transit system. Slavery would be further destabilized in the Confederacy resulting in even more draconian measures against slaves.

The war might end but the fighting would continue.

 

[Yankeedave]

In my opinion I think the south knew they couldn't win a long protracted war. They were intellegent men and could see that their best chance was a short war with a political solution. I think they thought that popular opinion would play in their favor and that was a close thing and almost worked. If McClellan had beat Lincoln in the election they would have got their way. That was the most devastating battle they lost.

And that was a battle won in part by all the union armies. they could have settled but almost to the man backed Lincoln in November.

 

[Yankeedave]

This is true. After 1876, the federal government readmitted the seceded states and then left them entirely alone. The country was tired of war and reconstruction and the Grant Administration's efforts toward black suffrage. There followed the Jim Crow laws including statutes that stripped children of slaves of voting rights. Segregation was enshrined in state law, went to the Supreme Court, and was affirmed in Plessy v. Ferguson. Any efforts to deal with lynchings at the federal level were blocked by Southern Democrats into the 1950s.

From what I can understand blacks held the majority in many areas and with no restrictions they began fill seats from School Board to the Senate. After this Jim Crow laws were passed.

 

[KeyserSoze]

The CSA Constitution did not allow the importation of slaves from foreign sources, but they could be imported from US states. Export of slaves were not addressed.

Had the Confederacy won their independence then the U.S. would be a foreign source. Anyone who doesn't think that slaves wouldn't have been imported from other sources as well is just kidding themselves.

 

[Yankeedave]

The South gains independence, and indirect global pressure induces the South to fee its slaves. Still a largely agrarian nations there are no jobs. After a few tense years a basic self supporting industry rises. Domestic concerns are the priority. When the world wars occur the nation sends it's small army to be deployed. now all you need is a name.

 

[OpnCoronet]

I remember reading somewhere the phrase that the South lost on the battlefield only to win in the statehouses after the Civil War.

Anyone else hear something like that?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Actual reunion was only accomplished when Reconstruction was aborted and the forms of slavery were established. Reconstruction would have to wait almost another century.

 

[jgoodguy]

Had the Confederacy won their independence then the U.S. would be a foreign source. Anyone who doesn't think that slaves wouldn't have been imported from other sources as well is just kidding themselves.

CSA Constitution had special provisions for the US.

Sect. 9.

(1) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.

 

[jgoodguy]

The FSL was U.S. law. Had the Confederacy somehow become a separate country the Republicans would have repealed the law and abolished slavery by constitutional amendment in the (reduced) United States. Slaves making it to free states or territories would be free and the Confederacy would have no recourse to recover the fugitives. Indeed, the acrimony would be so great between the sections that the Underground Railroad would become a mass transit system. Slavery would be further destabilized in the Confederacy resulting in even more draconian measures against slaves.

The war might end but the fighting would continue.

I disagree on the mass transit idea. An independent South could have tighter borders than a South part of the US. In theory they could have walls and military patrols with orders to shoot to kill along it. OTOH the cost could be prohibitive. Another possibility would be a black free zone say 20 miles deep where any black would be shot on sight by random patrols. All kinds of possibilities illegal under a US constitution.

 

[KeyserSoze]

CSA Constitution had special provisions for the US.

True, but when you get right down to it the Confederate Constitution did not ban slave imports, as is frequently claimed. It specifically protected slave imports, albiet from a single source. And as I said, anyone really believing that slave imports would have been limited to the U.S. alone is just kidding themselves. An independent Confederacy would have taken in slaves regardless of their point of origin,

 

[KeyserSoze]

The South gains independence, and indirect global pressure induces the South to fee its slaves. Still a largely agrarian nations there are no jobs. After a few tense years a basic self supporting industry rises. Domestic concerns are the priority. When the world wars occur the nation sends it's small army to be deployed. now all you need is a name.

I doubt you would have seen enough overseas pressure, indirect or otherwise, to force the South to give up its slaves.