Sumter Provocation

[unionblue]

TerryB,

You stated, in part, in your above post:

"For every Ruffin in the South who wanted war, there was a Beecher or Brown in the North."

Is this opinion, Terry, or is there actually a chart comparison between fire eaters and radical abolishionists we can compare numbers with?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[wilber6150]

I just have not run across in my studies the same lust for war in the North that the many in the South seemed to crave prior to the war..

 

[dvrmte]

When Stonewall Jackson visited New England in 1860 during the election, things he heard there aroused his fear that war would break out. I'd like to know what he heard.

dvrmte

 

[ole]

When Stonewall Jackson visited New England in 1860 during the election, things he heard there aroused his fear that war would break out. I'd like to know what he heard.

dvrmte

Me, too. I didn't know he visited New England during the election, nor did I know he heard things. Where did this come from?

Not being combative, but I've never known you to make things up, so I'd like to learn more about the idea.

I can assume that he heard some pretty scary rants in New England, like if Grant had been visiting SC at the same time. Doesn't take a genious to read signs.

 

[Ellsworth avenger]

Mary Anna Jackson relates that spirited talk was on the rise in Northhampton,Mass.,where they were enrolled in a hydropathic treatment program that summer, but that the General had nothing but friendly conversations . She relates that he was surprised to hear of a physical altercation between a South Carolina gentleman and a northern Baptist minister, whom he had befriended that summer. She states her husband was a Union man, after Lincoln's election,but devoted to his state.
Memoirs of Stonewall Jackson by Mary Anna Jackson, 1895.

 

[dvrmte]

Mary Anna Jackson relates that spirited talk was on the rise in Northhampton,Mass.,where they were enrolled in a hydropathic treatment program that summer, but that the General had nothing but friendly conversations . She relates that he was surprised to hear of a physical altercation between a South Carolina gentleman and a northern Baptist minister, whom he had befriended that summer. She states her husband was a Union man, after Lincoln's election,but devoted to his state.
Memoirs of Stonewall Jackson by Mary Anna Jackson, 1895.

I'll add some more to that from the same source:

"The climate also is bracing and delightful, and there
was much to contribute to our enjoyment, notwith-
standing the inhospitable elements which Southerners
felt in the North at that time of great political ex-
citement. As it was the summer before Mr. Lincoln's
election, Major Jackson heard and saw enough to
awaken his fears that it might portend civil war ; but
he had no dispute with those who differed from him,
treating all politely, and made some pleasant acquaint-
ances, among them a Baptist minister, wbo often
joined us in our walks, when the conversations were
always friendly. To our surprise, one day the wife
of a gentleman from South Carolina reported that
her husband had had a violent political dispute with
this same minister, whom we had found so courteous.
Although he was an abolitionist, and Major Jackson
was a slave-holder, each had recognized in the other
enough to be a bond of union, and their pleasant re-
lations continued as long as they remained together."

 

[ole]

Good stuff to know, dvrmte. Thanks for posting that.

 

[TerryB]

TerryB,

You stated, in part, in your above post:

"For every Ruffin in the South who wanted war, there was a Beecher or Brown in the North."

Is this opinion, Terry, or is there actually a chart comparison between fire eaters and radical abolishionists we can compare numbers with?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

It's obviously rhetoric. But, given the North's much larger population, I think it's defensible.

It strikes me that the, "Let's just let calmer heads prevail and don't do anything rash," argument is rather like the Captain of Titanic saying, "Everybody take a number and get in line. There's plenty of room in the lifeboats for all of you."

 

[ole]

That there were no cool heads suggests unshakeable agendas.

 

[TerryB]

That there were no cool heads suggests unshakeable agendas.

Something that sort of shocked me in my assigned reading for college level ACW classes I took was how violent the rhetoric of many abolishonists (sp?) was. Lincoln did not fit that mold, but many did. I think this is what Jackson was hearing.

 

[unionblue]

It's obviously rhetoric. But, given the North's much larger population, I think it's defensible.

Prepare to defend yourself.

It strikes me that the, "Let's just let calmer heads prevail and don't do anything rash," argument is rather like the Captain of Titanic saying, "Everybody take a number and get in line. There's plenty of room in the lifeboats for all of you."

Terry,

The reading that I recall about the abolishionist movement in the North is it had about as much influence and representation in the general population of the US as the Weather Underground and the SDS did during the '60s and '70s.

People, in general, considered the abolishionists a fringe group, that had no political or social power. Vocal? Yes. But not at the center of any political power that mattered at the time.

Now, there were folks in the Republican party that were abolishionists, Chase, Sumner, and others, but I do recall reading that none of them were considered front-runners for the Republican nomination for President because they were TOO radical and too anti-slavery. This is why Lincoln garnered support, as he was considered a moderate on the topic of slavery and was not considered an abolishionist.

So, I am going to take the other side of the fence on this one when jawin' with you. I do not believe for every Rhett, Ruffin, or other fire-eater, there was an equal number of firey abolishionists in a position of power and influence that the fire-eaters were in.

IMHO.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[Ellsworth avenger]

Terry,

The reading that I recall about the abolishionist movement in the North is it had about as much influence and representation in the general population of the US as the Weather Underground and the SDS did during the '60s and '70s.

People, in general, considered the abolishionists a fringe group, that had no political or social power. Vocal? Yes. But not at the center of any political power that mattered at the time.

Now, there were folks in the Republican party that were abolishionists, Chase, Sumner, and others, but I do recall reading that none of them were considered front-runners for the Republican nomination for President because they were TOO radical and too anti-slavery. This is why Lincoln garnered support, as he was considered a moderate on the topic of slavery and was not considered an abolishionist.

So, I am going to take the other side of the fence on this one when jawin' with you. I do not believe for every Rhett, Ruffin, or other fire-eater, there was an equal number of firey abolishionists in a position of power and influence that the fire-eaters were in.

IMHO.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Totally off the cuff at this point,but the number of notable pundits at this time with an abolitionist agenda[re. Second Great Awakening. William Lloyd Garrison and the Quakers,Frederick Douglass,and others such as James Birney who garnered 62,000 votes in 1844] i think shows some solid grass root support. As posted in a earlier thread ,John Quincy Adams fight against the gag order in congress on slavery,swung public opinion in the North to a great degree..

 

[BillO]

My personal opinion is that you can't underestimate the power "Uncle Toms Cabin" had on the south and then throw in Browns failedraid and the av erage southerner were probably convinced that they were under direct attack. I suspect there was a complete breakdown in understanding between north and south.

 

[TerryB]

My personal opinion is that you can't underestimate the power "Uncle Toms Cabin" had on the south and then throw in Browns failedraid and the av erage southerner were probably convinced that they were under direct attack. I suspect there was a complete breakdown in understanding between north and south.

Stark Young, a Mississippi writer to whom I'm related by marriage, wrote a couple of books in the 1930s based on his McGeehe family. They were opposed to slavery until they discovered all sorts of pamphlets and perhaps arms, in the suitcase of a man from the North whom they'd befriended. The stuff was right out of John Brown, so this family changed positions and became ardently secessionist. Young was a member of the literary movement known as the Agrarians, perhaps the first Southern Apologists of the modern era.

 

[TerryB]

Terry,

The reading that I recall about the abolishionist movement in the North is it had about as much influence and representation in the general population of the US as the Weather Underground and the SDS did during the '60s and '70s.

People, in general, considered the abolishionists a fringe group, that had no political or social power. Vocal? Yes. But not at the center of any political power that mattered at the time.

Now, there were folks in the Republican party that were abolishionists, Chase, Sumner, and others, but I do recall reading that none of them were considered front-runners for the Republican nomination for President because they were TOO radical and too anti-slavery. This is why Lincoln garnered support, as he was considered a moderate on the topic of slavery and was not considered an abolishionist.

So, I am going to take the other side of the fence on this one when jawin' with you. I do not believe for every Rhett, Ruffin, or other fire-eater, there was an equal number of firey abolishionists in a position of power and influence that the fire-eaters were in.

IMHO.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

You may be right, but the propaganda mill was cranking out all sorts of tabloids with calls for violent overthrow of slavery. Those folks may have been the Antebellum counterparts of today's basement bloggers who spew all sorts of venomous rhetoric, and who really have little or no influence on the politicians, but they do get the attention of the press. In a noisy room full of people engaging in an honest debate, the guy threatening to shoot someone is going to stand out.

 

[matthew mckeon]

It's hard to distinguish the propaganda that soaked the South in the antebellum era from the actual political situation. Stark Young's anecdote sounds like an utter fantasy to me.

 

[matthew mckeon]

You may be right, but the propaganda mill was cranking out all sorts of tabloids with calls for violent overthrow of slavery. Those folks may have been the Antebellum counterparts of today's basement bloggers who spew all sorts of venomous rhetoric, and who really have little or no influence on the politicians, but they do get the attention of the press. In a noisy room full of people engaging in an honest debate, the guy threatening to shoot someone is going to stand out.

How many abolitionist journals were "cranking out" calls for violence? Ten? Five? One? Secessionists with an agenda may be busily trying to stampede non slaveowners with scare stories, but there's no reason for us to believe them. I think its a false equivalence.

 

[TerryB]

It's hard to distinguish the propaganda that soaked the South in the antebellum era from the actual political situation. Stark Young's anecdote sounds like an utter fantasy to me.

He wasn't born until the 1880s, so he was reporting stories he heard growing up. He has a lot of credibility to me in that I have photos of people I was able to ID based on his works. On the other hand, he did get some facts wrong in places where I'm able to check, and he has been said by some literary critics to have blended fiction in with his family history. [edit] Yet I've always believed the story of the suitcase that accidentally fell open when the man dropped on the steps of the McGehee home. Young also told a story of that house, or one further South in Mississippi being burned by the Federals, while the lady of the house was given five minutes to rescue her piano. She and her husband dragged it down those same steps, as I recall the story. A vague echo of possibly the same story worked its way down my family line, and I remember my grandmother talking about it. Her version, heard when she was a kid, was similar enough to make me think its the same story, since we never had a house in Holly Springs burned as far as I can tell.

 

[TerryB]

How many abolitionist journals were "cranking out" calls for violence? Ten? Five? One? Secessionists with an agenda may be busily trying to stampede non slaveowners with scare stories, but there's no reason for us to believe them. I think its a false equivalence.

I obviously have some homework to do on this issue, but since I'm getting these notions of violent rhetoric from college level texts (and don't have any reason to suspect a hidden agenda), I have to think they were a part of what was making Southerners paranoid. Or is the whiskey-drinking, hard-swearing, duel-fighting warmonger something that's exclusive to Southern character at the time?

 

[brass napoleon]

I obviously have some homework to do on this issue, but since I'm getting these notions of violent rhetoric from college level texts (and don't have any reason to suspect a hidden agenda), I have to think they were a part of what was making Southerners paranoid. Or is the whiskey-drinking, hard-swearing, duel-fighting warmonger something that's exclusive to Southern character at the time?

I suspect it was some of both. The Northern hotheads were talking trash, and the Southern hotheads were publicizing it, exaggerating it, and milking it for all it was worth.