Strange uniform**Identification?

[dbd29374]

We are trying to resolve the identity of this person. Can anyone tell me what uniform this could be? At first we thought it was Confederate Civil War, now we wonder if it is a military cadet school uniform, such as West Point or The Citadel. Any ideas?

 

[The Iron Duke]

That looks a bit like the 1st Virginia Cavalry uniform but I'm inclined to think not.

 

[CWBuff26]

Interesting uniform i've never seen one like that before, it don't really look like a military cadet uniform to me though sorry I couldn't be much help

 

[dvrmte]

Very interesting. I hope somebody can identify it.

In the snow he would look like a skeleton from a distance.

 

[Joey12thga]

It's an overshirt/battleshirt. Can't recall any descriptions of any units in shirts like this though. Great pic though with the Tin drum style canteen, double billet belt, side knife and the pistol shoved up in there.

 

[M E Wolf]

DBD29374,

You wrote:

We are trying to resolve the identity of this person. Can anyone tell me what uniform this could be? At first we thought it was Confederate Civil War, now we wonder if it is a military cadet school uniform, such as West Point or The Citadel. Any ideas?

View attachment 2476

I hope you can work with Wilber6150, in hopes that he can zoom in and enhance the photograph. He works magic

Now that said, the only other avenues of attempts to identify the uniform would be through the following;

• The U.S. Army Heritage and Education Center (USAHEC)
  
  Dec 1, 2010 ... Brooks E. Kleber Memorial Reading in Military History with Dr. ... Perspectives in Military History Lecture Series with Dr. Kyle F. Zelner ...
  www.carlisle.army.mil/ahec/ - Similar
  • USAMHI Photograph Holdings
  • Hours & Directions
  • Contact Information
  • USAMHI Home
  • Photo Gallery
  • AHCO Home
  • General Information
  • Introduction to USAHEC
  
  [ More results from www.carlisle.army.mil ]
• US Army War College
  
  Military Archbishop makes first visit to Carlisle Barracks. Three years ago ...
  www.carlisle.army.mil/ - Similar
• Military Records
  
  Military History Institute (Carlisle, PA); National Personnel Records Center (St Louis, ... PA State Archives - Research Guides - Korean Conflict Records ...
  www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/military_reco... - Similar

(The Army's attic)

and:

U.S. Library of Congress; U.S. Quarter-Masters' Archivist (who would have uniforms on file and specifications); National Archives and or the Textile Museum.
===========================================================
Observations of Civil War Era Shirts
Author: Jason Rich of Homespun Wares

The Civil War era was a time of transition for men's shirt styles. Women at home were making shirts based on patterns that had been passed down through generations. In the 1850's a major change in the construction of the man's shirt was introduced from France. It became known as the "French Pattern" shirt. The sewing machine which had been around for many years was becoming more prevalent and accepted in the 1860's. Paper patterns and ready made garments were also becoming more acceptable during this time. Volumes could be written on this subject, but we will focus on some general areas of interest for those wanting to wear a period correct reproduction shirt.

Shirts of the 18th and 19th century were regarded as underwear and were not designed to be exposed to the general public. While working men may be in their shirtsleeves as soon as they ventured out into public they at least put on a vest.

The homespun shirt pattern passed down through generations was known as the "Square Cut Pattern". This shirt made some transitions from the one button open front to the multi button placket front. However the basic pattern remained the same. This shirt was made from a series of rectangles and squares. The only fitting was at the neck, and wristband into which the sleeves were gathered. Early shirts were made of white linen, then prints, stripes, and plaids by the 1860's. The shirt body was a large rectangle extending to the thigh. The shoulder was reinforced. It had rectangular sleeves with gussets and the seam was off the shoulder. The cuffs were long about 3" and extended to the knuckle area. This was so the cuff could be seen while wearing a jacket then folded back on itself while working. The cuff buttons and button holes were placed close to the sleeve / cuff hem and on the edge of the cuff. The placket was not much longer than mid chest and more than 4 or 5 buttons would be unusual. Generally the collar was a fold down collar which could be worn with a cravat.

Reference:
http://www.gavolbn.org/shirtobservations.html

----------------------
I see two rows of buttons, cravat -- homespun shirt, which seems linen. (Might not be a 'uniform' per se, however a very well armed young man).

M. E. Wolf

 

[wilber6150]

 

[wilber6150]

 

[M E Wolf]

I see you saw the "V" on the buckle Wilber...

Ok boys -- which had the double "D" buckle belt with a "club" (playing card club) tongue on the belt buckle with a raised "V" on the end of it? ... Volunteers....

Leather Pistol cartridge belt?

M. E. Wolf

 

[wilber6150]

I see you saw the "V" on the buckle Wilber...

Ok boys -- which had the double "D" buckle belt with a "club" (playing card club) tongue on the belt buckle with a raised "V" on the end of it? ... Volunteers....

M. E. Wolf

Yes I did but it just blurs out under further magnification... Is that a pistol butt sticking out by the handle of the knife?

 

[wilber6150]

Is it just me or was this painted at one time, his eyes seem blue to me.. But it might be my eyes playing tricks lol...

 

[M E Wolf]

Yes I did but it just blurs out under further magnification... Is that a pistol butt sticking out by the handle of the knife?

Yes, but--it looks more like a dueling pistol butt ...it doesn't seem to have the same revolver butt as some others however, earlier in the war people brought their own guns...so it might be a waffle back and forth period wise but--the homespun shirt is spot on, which the web site referred to in the vicinity of 1850-1860.

I think your eyes are tired...I didn't see tint. But, he does have light eyes. Pity the photo is pocked with missing bits ....

The shirt seems to be horizontal stripes with "V" stripes like "Sergeant" stripes/chevrons with space, down by the cuffs, which is banned with the same color as the stripes.

So far, I haven't found anything that really matches. I've viewed a few militia and they are sewn with frogs on the end on both sides, like cadets wore way back.

M. E. Wolf

 

[Savez]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say its a Mississippi boy. Early war volunteers from there and North Carolina wore a similar shirt or jacket.

 

[The Iron Duke]

It does look similar to the uniform the 11th Mississippi, Bee's Brigade, wore at First Manassas. Here are some other examples from Don Troiani's website.

http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gallery/main.php/v/album01/album08/?g2_page=1

17th Mississippi:

Expired Image Removed

14th North Carolina:

Expired Image Removed

 

[M E Wolf]

The Iron Duke, sir;


Thank you for posting these images! What is different from the photograph though which bothers me some, still -- is that the shirt is buttoned on both sides, like the western shirts seen at times worn by the Cowboys like Roy Rogers in the 1960's TV program where it, which opens from the side, the other row of buttons a false opening. The VVV in a row on the sleeve like a sergeant. And, instead of an uninterrupted stripe horizontal ... the photograph has a purposeful interruption down the middle. It is homespun and--I know there is a gap in missing information as far as attire goes. I lean still, to the idea this chap is a recruit volunteer to whom hasn't been fitted with the uniform.

Expired Image Removed
Expired Image Removed

This is an interesting photo though regardless.

I am impressed by the artist's talent and looked at his Louisiana Zouave Battalion, Coppen's Zouaves 1861. The chevrons were really low on the sleeve like this photograph. But...it needs to be explored more. And, must consider Union as well as Confederate--But, it is striking how similarly the chevrons are placed in the Zouave rendering.

Just some personal opinions.

M. E. Wolf

 

[TerryB]

It's my understanding that that the "soldier's shirt" mentioned in many a letter home (please make me one, Mother) was worn in lieu of a jacket by many Confederates in the Western Theater for at least the first year of the war. In Virginia and the Carolinas there was more standardization of uniforms, but in the West, not so much.

 

[dbd29374]

Strange Uniform**Identification

Wow, thanks for all the interesting comments. I had never noticed the "V' on the belt buckle.
A little more history on the photo, not necessarily on the person. This photo was one of two found in the personal effects of a lady in Arkansas. I am attaching the other "unknown" for opinions. I believe he is Lewis Pinckny Thomas "Pink". I did a side by side for easier comparison. The Thomas Brothers were from bottom left, clockwise around: William Robert Thomas, Lewis Pinckny Thomas, Thomas Seborn Thomas and John Alexander "Zan" Thomas.
William Robert Thomas and Lewis Pinckny Thomas were killed at Gettysburg. Zan was wounded at Malvern Hill and severely injured at Fredricksburg. He moved to Arkansas after the war, so he is probably the Arkansas connection to the other "unknown" photo. Thomas Seborn was also wounded at Gettysburg and taken to Point Lookout Prison in Maryland. A fifth brother, Marion Lindsey Thomas,Company "C" 13th Regiment was killed prior to this photo in the Second Manassas Battle.
The Thomas Family lived in Walnut Grove,SC where the North & South Tyger Rivers merge. The four shown were all in the Blackstock Company "K", 3rd South Carolina Infantry Regiment. As best I can gather, they were involved with the "Peach Orchard" charge at Gettysburg.
Both unknown photos came from the same lady, so it is believed they are related some how. William Robert Thomas was my GG-Grandfather. It is reported he was a physician, but I don't believe he served in that capacity in the War.
Any other information anyone has to offer, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for all the help. I believe the "unknown" is actually Lewis Pinckny Thomas (standing in rear,on left) The hair style and hairline led me to this conclusion mostly.
View attachment 2482

 

[dbd29374]

I think you are correct wilber6150. The Thomas Brothers were known for brilliant blue eyes. An older photo of "Zan" shows this as well. Too bad they were not in color.

 

[kholland]

Reminds me a little of the yankee bumblebees uniform but I don't think it's that.

 

[Tin cup]

Could that be the bowl of a pipe tucked into his belt?

Kevin Dally