Strange P1853

[vl5150]

Hi everyone. I recently inherited my Dad's musket that has been a wall hanger for a long while. I never paid much attention to it, but now that I have it I decided to take a closer look. I've started researching the markings and it doesn't jive with what other ones are stamped with. No proofs, strange stampings on the lock plate and simple rear sight. It has a crown, and the 24 pin punched into the top of the barrel.What do you guys make of it? I haven't touched it or opened it up yet to look for anything else, but for now I'm stumped. Thinking Asian? Thoughts?

 

[OldSarge79]

Thinking Asian?

I think you are on the right track.
It certainly isn't British.

Nice dog, by the way.

 

[vl5150]

Thanks for the reply. I've enjoyed historical firearms for many years and somehow skipped researching this one. I guess hanging on the wall for so many years and playing with it as a kid makes it a part of furniture of the house. And my friend there it Bruno, an American Bulldog!

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Agree with OldSarge.
Keep the nice dog.
Put the gun back on the wall. It's an accumulation of mixed parts and very poorly assembled.

 

[Nebraska Lawdog]

One of the ones from I.M.A. ?

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Very likely to be an I.M.A. treasure.

 

[Craig L Barry]

It has the look of one of those relics from the Nepalese Armory, except most of those were type II if I am remembering them correctly.

 

[Old Soldier]

More than likely an Afghan copy of an Indian Army issue P53 smoothbore. The butt screws are not standard being too countersunk. The lock plate screws have too wide a slot in them - most are disfigured with the use of tapered screwdrivers. The date and the attempt at the makers name, with reversed figures and letters, is fairly typical of these. It does not look long enough to be a 3-band (barrel length?) and the bands and ramrod are Type 1 - a rare beast today, if it were real. Is it rifled? The Nepalese rifles had letters and figures in Devanagari script and they also had the standard ramp sight. Indian production would not have the maker/date on the lock plate. Having said that, it looks to be one of the better ones, but not a 'real' Enfield.

 

[vl5150]

Thanks Gents! Always appreciate expert feedback. I don't see rifling, just surface rust so I'm not sure if it's there or not. I think I'll just hang it on the wall in my son's room. He's in the USMC and when he's home on leave he'll have a nice surprise on the wall when he visits, lol.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Smooth bore barrel?
The only Enfields with that type of fixed rear sight were not rifled - this was to restrict the accurate range of these, in case the local troops should decide to mutiny again against the British who would have the rifled and so longer range arms.

 

[OldSarge79]

The Pattern 1859 was the smoothbore model for Indian sepoys after the Great Mutiny, .65 caliber.

 

[vl5150]

Yep, that's it. No rifling visible so I guess it didn't rust away, but was like that to begin with. P1859 it is.

 

[Old Soldier]

Yep, that's it. No rifling visible so I guess it didn't rust away, but was like that to begin with. P1859 it is.

Not Quite. It is a P1859 COPY. It was made in Afghanistan.

 

[yulzari]

Smooth bore Pattern 1853ish copies were widely made in India as well as Afghanistan for the local market. Pattern 1853 being the 'cool' look of the day. Both origin copies were usually in 24ish bore whilst the Indian Army Pattern 1859 was in 17 bore. This one does not have the 1859 fore nor rear sight so is not a Pattern 1859 whatever it's bore size.

It has the appearance of one of the better made ones but a look in the lock would be an additional guide.

 

[Old Soldier]

That does explain the dot pattern on the barrel - 24 - but whatever the source, it is NOT a regulation Pattern 1859.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Old time collectors used to call this type of locally copied arm a Khyber Pass product - this name likely came from the fact that the town of Darra in the tribal area between Afghanistan and Pakistan made and still makes copies of old and new arms were make with hand tools. The makers would stamp random letters and marks on these - I once saw one where the fellow marking the lock used on a capital "E" stamp, so he just rotated it a quarter turn between each strike of his hammer.
They still make copies of the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, AK-47s, Sig 230s, Colt 1911s, as well as single shot Enfields and they used to offer copies of the Swedish Bofors anti aircraft guns!