Stonewall Stonewall to stone dust

[New Haven]

At the Battle of Chancellorsville the Stonewall Brigade suffered its highest number of casualties in any one engagement during the Civil War ("493 men, including the principal officers"). Despite the valiant efforts of the brigade shortness of the battle and sunset that
saved the day. Afterwards, the Brigade could not even muster a full regiment. Some similar stats, the ANV lost 22 % of their army, same as the 11th Corp. https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1104&context=the_histories

 

[JerryD]

This looks like a moderately well done college term paper. The points it makes are valid, though, if a little overblown.

 

[New Haven]

This looks like a moderately well done college term paper. The points it makes are valid, though, if a little overblown.

Really? In what way do you think it is overblown?

 

[JerryD]

Really? In what way do you think it is overblown?

Just in terms of the adjectives selected, like "constant stream of court martials". I take words literally, and while Jackson did have a lot of commanders arrested, he was not involved in a constant stream of court martials. In fact, I am not aware that any of his arrest resulted in a court martial, but even if they did, they would not have been constant. So saying so makes it overblown.

 

[10th Michigan Infantry]

Just in terms of the adjectives selected, like "constant stream of court martials". I take words literally, and while Jackson did have a lot of commanders arrested, he was not involved in a constant stream of court martials. In fact, I am not aware that any of his arrest resulted in a court martial, but even if they did, they would not have been constant. So saying so makes it overblown.

Lee would typically mediate the situation and dismiss the charges. In fairness to Jackson, most of the time when he did have commanders arrested it was with good reason.

 

[JerryD]

Lee would typically mediate the situation and dismiss the charges. In fairness to Jackson, most of the time when he did have commanders arrested it was with good reason.

We will have to disagree about whether he had good reasons or not. But I was referring to the language used in the posted article.

 

[New Haven]

Just in terms of the adjectives selected, like "constant stream of court martials". I take words literally, and while Jackson did have a lot of commanders arrested, he was not involved in a constant stream of court martials. In fact, I am not aware that any of his arrest resulted in a court martial, but even if they did, they would not have been constant. So saying so makes it overblown.

Jerry D. thank you for your comments here. Because Jackson died so early in the war, and the Lost Cause people could not find any other Confederate general to deify they choose to venerate Jackson. It is just history catching up with them, especially the individual diaries of the Confederate army units. Jackson began his court martials early and often, this is one while he was at VMI--https://www.vmi.edu/archives/manuscripts/stonewall-jackson-resources/professor-jackson-at-vmi/james-walker-court-martial/
Jerry D. I am pretty sure old Stonewall has the trophy on court martials. It is a little known fact that within the six months spanning the Shenandoah Valley Campaign Jackson had attempted to court-martial two of his brigadier generals (Loring and Garnett) and two of his senior colonels (Conner and Gilham). I am certain there are more. Here is an earlier post on this site that will give more credence and veracity to the my OP. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/st...onfrontation-on-the-road-to-sharpsburg.98500/
You can imagine how these two were after sundown , in the woods at Chancellorsville. I have always been suspect of shooting of Jackson.

 

[JerryD]

Jerry D. thank you for your comments here. Because Jackson died so early in the war, and the Lost Cause people could not find any other Confederate general to deify they choose to venerate Jackson. It is just history catching up with them, especially the individual diaries of the Confederate army units. Jackson began his court martials early and often, this is one while he was at VMI--https://www.vmi.edu/archives/manuscripts/stonewall-jackson-resources/professor-jackson-at-vmi/james-walker-court-martial/
Jerry D. I am pretty sure old Stonewall has the trophy on court martials. It is a little known fact that within the six months spanning the Shenandoah Valley Campaign Jackson had attempted to court-martial two of his brigadier generals (Loring and Garnett) and two of his senior colonels (Conner and Gilham). I am certain there are more. Here is an earlier post on this site that will give more credence and veracity to the my OP. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/st...onfrontation-on-the-road-to-sharpsburg.98500/
You can imagine how these two were after sundown , in the woods at Chancellorsville. I have always been suspect of shooting of Jackson.

Like I said, your points are mostly valid, but the language you choose to use is a little overblown. For example, Jackson was already being venerated before the Lost Cause got started. Also, not sure what you find suspect about the shooting.

In any event, though, I do agree that we are in the midst of a long overdue re-assessment of the CSA and its icons, like Jackson, and how we should view them.

 

[jackt62]

This is an engaging article because of its greater even-handedness in evaluating Jackson's generalship. I agree with @JerryD that the paper's scholarship and writing is on level with a moderately well done college essay that makes valid points. The article emphasizes Jackson's secrecy and harsh disciplinary methods as negative characteristics that may have prevented him from being a superb leader of men. Those characteristics have been well known but often downplayed as far as their effect on Jackson's military skills. As far as those skills are concerned, Jackson was more akin to a lone-wolf raider rather than as a solid handler of troops and planner of tactical dispositions. These skills were apparent during his well regarded Shenandoah campaign; while he may have fought lower tier enemy commanders, Jackson's fast and nimble movements are creditable in contrast to his execution of specific battles such as Kernstown and McDowell.

 

[jackt62]

Jackson was already being venerated before the Lost Cause got started.

Very true. During the spring of 1862, Jackson was the southern hero, hailed for his sweeping Shenandoah campaign. At that point in the war, the south could not point to any other commander who had bested Union opponents, including icons such as Joe Johnston, Albert Sidney Johnston, and Beauregard. Lee had yet to assume command of the ANV, and was in fact considered something of a "loser." Add to the fact that Jackson had already acquired a cool nickname, and it's no surprise that he was venerated by the press and public. And that brought him enough goodwill to last through his imperfect performance during the Seven Days.

 

[Rebforever]

Very true. During the spring of 1862, Jackson was the southern hero, hailed for his sweeping Shenandoah campaign. At that point in the war, the south could not point to any other commander who had bested Union opponents, including icons such as Joe Johnston, Albert Sidney Johnston, and Beauregard. Lee had yet to assume command of the ANV, and was in fact considered something of a "loser." Add to the fact that Jackson had already acquired a cool nickname, and it's no surprise that he was venerated by the press and public. And that brought him enough goodwill to last through his imperfect performance during the Seven Days.

Describe , if you will, those "imperfect performances".

 

[jackt62]

Describe , if you will, those "imperfect performances".

Jackson's leadership of his command during the Seven Days was a strange mixture of indifference and lackadaisical effort. Jackson was to have kicked off Lee's planned assault on Porter's V Corps at Beaver Dam Creek by turning the federal right flank. But Jackson didn't show up in time, leaving AP Hill alone to carry out his portion of the assault. A similar situation occurred at Gaines Mill, when Jackson was similarly tasked to turn the V Corps flank; on this occasion he did not timely join in the attack. South of the Chickahominy River during the pursuit of the AotP, Jackson did not engage rear guard units of the enemy as directed at Savage Station and the White Oak Swamp. There have been various explanations for this behavior, including mental exhaustion on Jackson's part and difficulties in navigating routes and river crossings, but overall the Seven Days was not Jackson's finest hour.

 

[Tom Elmore]

I had a hearty laugh when Jackson is criticized for insulting aristocrats who were "raised to believe they were superior to the common man." Just because someone is raised to believe nonsense does not make it so, and the arrogance that accompanies such misguided thoughts usually sets one up for ultimate failure. Jackson would actually be doing his army a great favor by weeding out such officers.

As for the common man, yes, he drove them hard, and while they grumbled they became lean and tough, and probably surprised themselves as much as anyone else when they routinely marched twice as fast and far as their opponents, literally running circles around their foes in the Shenandoah campaign. Such speed sets up victories and that's what Jackson delivered. It was Blitzkrieg without tanks. One can overlook a lot of strange ideosyncrasies and hypochondria in a General if he proves successful in battle.

Then Jackson and his men desperately needed time to rest but instead he and his men were immediately thrown into the Seven Days' battles, with almost predictable breakdowns resulting from physical and mental exhaustion.

I came to admire Jackson while studying the man and his campaigns as a young teenager. In subsequent decades I have found no convincing reasons to modify my initial impressions. In my opinion, his reputation has even held up in recent times when one considers he taught slaves to read and write when it was a violation of Virginia law to do so. I have come to believe that literacy, probably more than anything else, leads to lasting independence and freedom.

 

[JerryD]

Jackson's leadership of his command during the Seven Days was a strange mixture of indifference and lackadaisical effort. Jackson was to have kicked off Lee's planned assault on Porter's V Corps at Beaver Dam Creek by turning the federal right flank. But Jackson didn't show up in time, leaving AP Hill alone to carry out his portion of the assault. A similar situation occurred at Gaines Mill, when Jackson was similarly tasked to turn the V Corps flank; on this occasion he did not timely join in the attack. South of the Chickahominy River during the pursuit of the AotP, Jackson did not engage rear guard units of the enemy as directed at Savage Station and the White Oak Swamp. There have been various explanations for this behavior, including mental exhaustion on Jackson's part and difficulties in navigating routes and river crossings, but overall the Seven Days was not Jackson's finest hour.

I've often wondered how Jackson would have reacted to a subordinate who did what Jackson did during the Seven Days. Going into bivouac within earshot of Gaines Mill when he had been ordered to lead the attack, I think, would have resulted in immediate arrest. And sleeping on the field during White Oak Swamp might have led to a firing squad.

 

[Rebforever]

I've often wondered how Jackson would have reacted to a subordinate who did what Jackson did during the Seven Days. Going into bivouac within earshot of Gaines Mill when he had been ordered to lead the attack, I think, would have resulted in immediate arrest. And sleeping on the field during White Oak Swamp might have led to a firing squad.

Tell the rest of the story. What was the order and who sent it?

 

[JerryD]

Tell the rest of the story. What was the order and who sent it?

Are you not aware of the Seven Days Battles and Jackson's performance?

 

[RobertP]

Years ago I read and kept this article on Stonewall Jackson in the American Heritage Magazine, Dec. 1996, by Robert Krick. It's worth a read and I think relevant to the conversation here.

Yes, Jackson was both admired and feared during his time in the ANV, it's a mistake to say his image is a creation of the Lost Cause mythology. The first paragraph reads: "There was a witchery in his name, A Mississippian wrote, which carried confidence to friend and terror to foe," Northerners victimized by Stonewall Jackson's daring thrusts were hardly less laudatory. Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren, on the verge of becoming a Federal hero at Gettysburg, wrote on hearing of Jackson's death that he rejoiced for the Union cause, "and yet in my soldier's heart I cannot but see him the best soldier of all this war, and grieve at his untimely end." A New York newspaper praised Jackson as a "military genius" and declared, "Nowhere else will the name of Jackson be more honored."

But my favorite line in the article: "It prompted one witness to suggest that if (Jackson) were not a very good man he would be a very bad one."

Stonewall Jackson’s Deadly Calm

COMING TO TERMS WITH THE MOST COMPELLING AND MYSTERIOUS OF CIVIL WAR HEROES

www.americanheritage.com

 

[jackt62]

I came to admire Jackson while studying the man and his campaigns as a young teenager. In subsequent decades I have found no convincing reasons to modify my initial impressions. In my opinion, his reputation has even held up in recent times when one considers he taught slaves to read and write when it was a violation of Virginia law to do so.

In recent years there has been a necessary re-examination of Jackson and almost every other major commander north and south. By that I mean that much of what has been accepted as historical truth since the CW does not necessarily paint a complete picture. For example, McClellan is deemed a complete loser general, Grant and Sherman could do no wrong, Bragg was a total fiasco, and Lee was beyond reproach. These stereotypes have perhaps a grain of truth but are nothing but an easy way out for most people to pigeonhole these generals, rightly or wrongly. As far as Jackson is concerned, there should be no doubt that he was one of the most important Confederate commanders who helped carry the southern cause forward between May 1862 and May 1863. And yet, it is not improper to judge his overall strategic moves with his sometimes less than stellar moves on the tactical level. That doesn't take away from Jackson's reputation, it simply provides a 360 degree portrait of the man.

 

[Rebforever]

Years ago I read and kept this article on Stonewall Jackson in the American Heritage Magazine, Dec. 1996, by Robert Krick. It's worth a read and I think relevant to the conversation here.

Yes, Jackson was both admired and feared during his time in the ANV, it's a mistake to say his image is a creation of the Lost Cause mythology. The first paragraph reads: "There was a witchery in his name, A Mississippian wrote, which carried confidence to friend and terror to foe," Northerners victimized by Stonewall Jackson's daring thrusts were hardly less laudatory. Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren, on the verge of becoming a Federal hero at Gettysburg, wrote on hearing of Jackson's death that he rejoiced for the Union cause, "and yet in my soldier's heart I cannot but see him the best soldier of all this war, and grieve at his untimely end." A New York newspaper praised Jackson as a "military genius" and declared, "Nowhere else will the name of Jackson be more honored."

But my favorite line in the article: "It prompted one witness to suggest that if (Jackson) were not a very good man he would be a very bad one."

Stonewall Jackson’s Deadly Calm

COMING TO TERMS WITH THE MOST COMPELLING AND MYSTERIOUS OF CIVIL WAR HEROES

www.americanheritage.com

Excellent read. Thanks for posting.

 

[Package4]

At the Battle of Chancellorsville the Stonewall Brigade suffered its highest number of casualties in any one engagement during the Civil War ("493 men, including the principal officers"). Despite the valiant efforts of the brigade shortness of the battle and sunset that
saved the day. Afterwards, the Brigade could not even muster a full regiment. Some similar stats, the ANV lost 22 % of their army, same as the 11th Corp. https://digitalcommons.lasalle.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1104&context=the_histories

The paper is by a student with a preconceived notion where he cherry picked quotes from diaries and publications to fit his narrative. Very well written, but poorly researched. The author quotes Gen Charles Winder about the forced marches, but it was actually Jackson who had to tell Winder to ease up on unnecessary discipline within his command. John O Casler "Four Years in the Stonewall Brigade" pgs 101-110. The author omits this as it does not fit the narrative. Loring was removed from command for not wanting to be stationed in what he believed to be an out of the way outpost. Who better than Jackson to know where to station men, he grew up in the area, not to mention that it was actually agreed upon to station Loring there by commanding general Johnston, in a letter to Jackson, Johnston writes that Jackson should let Loring seize Romney, while Jackson continued destroying the B&O RR. J.E. Johnston to TJJ Nov 23, 1861 Old Catalog Collection also in the OR. Loring did not like the assignment and went over his commanding officer's head. Yeah court martial, you betcha!

I can go on and on here and at one time did not really have any interest in SWJ, but through collecting Confederate headgear I found myself with an inordinate amount of Stonewall brigade hats and felt it was time to do some research not only into the brigade but the man who lent them his moniker.

I don't have all day, but can rip this paper apart with facts to an embarrassing point, yes Jackson faltered at Seven Days, largely due to not having slept for days as a result of Lee taking command and holding council for the war plans that he was to submit. Jackson was supposed to be in the Valley, but he very secretly moved his force to strike where needed around Richmond. He moved towards Richmond via train, but as he got closer deemed it prudent to go the rest of the way by horse as not to be recognized. Jackson even had Gen Whiting write out a pass for an unidentified Col to go through the lines; Jackson not wearing a coat with rank insignia was the officer. The federals were not to know that Jackson's Corps was in the vicinity. Jackson's best traits were secrecy, quickness, discipline and fierceness.

Did the men gripe early on, yes, but they griped about every commanding officer at some point, it's called being under arms.....Grant's men called him a butcher. Read any contemporary letter or diary after the valley campaign, Stonewall's men complained but adored him.

The idea that the generals whom he fought were inferior may be true, but they were better equipped and more numerous, not to mention, who was he to fight; the army to his front and often times rear.

This is like asking is LaBron is better than Jordan, we'll never know because they did not play against each other. The author pits Jackson against Burnside at Fredericksburg, pardon me but that was Lee against Burnside as the two army commanders, Jackson was a corps commander. He even calls Burnside inexperienced, excuse me, he was not a great general, but he had very similar experience as Jackson.

Now back to work as I could do this all day.......