Starr M1863

[Old Soldier]

At long last, I have my first real Civil War piece - a Starr Single Action.

It was at a VERY good price, but as always, it is not perfect. You can see the pitting and the hammer MAY be repro, but it has pin-prick pitting and rust scars on it. I am sure some one has tried to 'restore' it before but has not made a good job of it as there are still rust patches in those hidden places. It works well BUT (always a 'but') the cylinder lock wn't work - probably a spring problem. The grip is well battered too with no sign of any stamps on it and so worn the backstrap sides are visible. There is little or no original finish left on it

Compared to my British revolvers, it is a bit of a beast, but it is original. The bore is in good condition although I will not be shooting it. All the parts are there too. Good job I can make my own springs!

All the Pietta parts have vanished over here, so I may also try my hand at making a new grip too!!
I am well up on these beasties but any help with spares and advice on stripping to component level would be appreciated.
It is an early production piece - 24420.

 

[iron bender]

One of my many go to's for parts. Nice revolver!

Products

 

[scooter748driver]

Congrats! Nice looking Starr. I've wanted to add one for a long time but haven't found one near my price point as yet. One day.

 

[JackADriscoll]

Let us know how the parts making goes. Would love to see it

 

[Old Soldier]

One of my many go to's for parts. Nice revolver!

Products

I saw that too. Problem is exporting. The USA does not like firms exporting any firearms materiel to we poor souls far away - no matter how old they are - hence the plea for 'help'.

 

[Old Soldier]

Let us know how the parts making goes. Would love to see it

I have to see the part first, if it isn't broken I will have a go at re-annealing and tempering again. If it is, I will have to make it from spring steel. Dismantling will follow shortly.

 

[iron bender]

I saw that too. Problem is exporting. The USA does not like firms exporting any firearms materiel to we poor souls far away - no matter how old they are - hence the plea for 'help'.

So dissappointing. In the meantime (actually since 1914) we ship the most advanced military technology all over the globe. Your Starr is the issue (sorry if this dives into modern/politics bs, please don't kick me off)

 

[Old Soldier]

So dissappointing. In the meantime (actually since 1914) we ship the most advanced military technology all over the globe. Your Starr is the issue (sorry if this dives into modern/politics bs, please don't kick me off)

No issue at all. Getting civil war issue guns in the UK, although most are now 'legal', is hard work. I got this one at half the price of a poor example simply because it didn't work as it should. Sure, I can get P53s here - although that is getting harder, most being Volunteer examples or Indian Army issue (smoothbore) - but none of them will be of US origin. Try getting an M1855 or M1861! Colt pistols are relatively easily available but VERY pricy - even the Belgian copies. London Colts are treasure trove! Anything in the USA will stay there - we can't get them and that goes for all spares, original or repro - even ones from Italy or Spain sold in the USA.

 

[bayonet]

No issue at all. Getting civil war issue guns in the UK, although most are now 'legal', is hard work. I got this one at half the price of a poor example simply because it didn't work as it should. Sure, I can get P53s here - although that is getting harder, most being Volunteer examples or Indian Army issue (smoothbore) - but none of them will be of US origin. Try getting an M1855 or M1861! Colt pistols are relatively easily available but VERY pricy - even the Belgian copies. London Colts are treasure trove! Anything in the USA will stay there - we can't get them and that goes for all spares, original or repro - even ones from Italy or Spain sold in the USA.

Must be why all the knuckleheads and thugs run around stabbing each other or stabbing innocent victims because guns are hard to get. Well if all you need is a spring or some other small part that looks nothing like any gun part to an inspecting customs official it should not be too hard for us to mail it to you. Or is it?

 

[Greshamian]

Looks like there is a market for Starr parts in the UK!

 

[Old Soldier]

Status report:
The pistol is now mostly disassembled. The rammer catch pin refuses to move, but that is acceptable. However the rammer lever axis pin is not moving, nor is the rammer pin beneath!!!
The cylinder lock does not look original, probably a Pietta item, and the lock/trigger spring is not original. The hammer pin certainly isn't
The hammer and trigger are original - although they do not look as though they are, but the trigger has the last 3 of the serial stamped on it. The grip is an original - but not for this piece as it has a different number stamped on the cross-piece.

So ... parts needed are an original cylinder lock lever AKA bolt, a trigger pin (Hammer/Frames Locking Screw) and a grip.

All the parts apart from the barrel assemby and main frame are bubbling away in white vinegar for 24 hours or so to re-rust them.
The cylinder is in the glass jar.

 

[Old Soldier]

De-rusting now complete. The the barrel assemby and main frame were soaked in citric acid (i had run out of white vinegar) which can be made stronger. It worked much quicker and has to be watched so it does not start on the white metal!. It also smells better!!!!
All were dried and oiled afterwards. No oil = orange rust within a few hours! The cylinder chambers are VERY dirty, black and will be a priority for cleaning. As with my other pistols, the nipples have come out of this very well and will not be removed (even if I could)

All that remains now is a wire-brushing to remove any loosened rust! Then comes the big decision.

 

[Old Soldier]

Here is the pistol dismantled and in its component parts. Note: the rammer/lever screw still remains fixed and stubborn as does the lever lock pin and spring. The trigger is secured by the pin, not a screw. The bolt and trigger spring (one with the hole in, just above the lower receiver/trigger guard) is not original or repro.

The grip will be replaced with a Pietta grip, shaped, fitted and 'aged'. The old one will still be kept with the pistol

 

[Old Soldier]

Update:
I checked the operation of the bolt (cylinder lock) without the spring and using my thumb in place of that spring. It works fine so the problem IS the spring. This may be settled by just bending the spring appropriately, as it seems long enough.

For those of a mechanical mind - here is my cross section of the action. The original is 1:1 using measurements taken from the pistol and it's components. The action is basically the same as a Colt-type action with certain patented differences. The bolt operating wedge on the hammer is actually the pin of the arm that turns the cylinder!

 

[Greshamian]

If I can't get the parts for the single action, i suppose I will just have to make do with the DA.

 

[Old Soldier]

To finish off this thread, the pistol is back together and working as it should!!! All the rust removed and contact parts smoothed for ease of operation - without much metal removal - otherwise it won't work as it should. Given the condition of the metal, the decision was taken to blue the metal, as it would have been, but also to 'age' that bluing once finished. Two stages - a 'first blue' followed much later (after I had finished playing with it!) with a better blue, but then aging it using fine wire-wool.

The only part needed was a new grip which could only be obtained from the USA. The old grip was well gone, still sound, but very worn and not as wide as it was originally which made it quite hard to hold. The fact that it was not same- serialled made this an easier choice. The old grip will still be retained. The new part was 'unfinished' and reduced in price for clearance, but the postage and export duty almost doubled it!! (Apparently my UK supplier tells me that Pietta are seriously considering producing more spares for the Starrs, but won't appear for a few years)

There was no need to make any parts but the bolt (cylinder stop) spring needed bending up a little. Not as easy as it sounds. As for the grip, the term 'unfinished' meant that it had not been fitted and was just as it came from the machine.

It was waaaaaaaay too large externally, as expected, but fitted well to the original parts requiring little 'excavation'. Fitting was just the first task - getting it to screw on to the pistol. It sounds so easy, but it requires some woodworking skill to fit a hardwood grip and sussing out what needs removing and what stays, You cannot 'undo' removal. Then came the paring down to get it reasonably flush with the metalwork - without spoiling the outline shape or those rebates at the top to get it flush with the frame join. BTW - I last did any real woodwork in 3rd Year grammar school (Grade 8), but it stays with you.

Once that was done came the 'ageing' - putting a few dents, bumps and stains on it to match the condition of the metal. Next was wood staining and oiling with BLO. It provides a MUCH better hold, but this beastie is VERY muzzle heavy compared to my British 44s (shorter barrel - 6"). I will post a photo of the finished pistol on a new thread later.

Historical Note: How come I find this on the UK market? Research tells me that most of the Starr pistols were withdrawn after the war as they were surplus to requirements. Most, if not all, were sold out of service in batches to civilian firms who sold them on. Few seem to have been converted to cartridge. There was a demand for firearms from France around 1866 when the Prussians defeated the Austro-Hungarians and again in 1870 for the Franco-Prussian War. Both DA and SA Starrs were sent, I presume bought from the civilian armories. Many other older weapons including pistols, rifles and carbines were sent too, but I suspect few saw any action as ammunition would have been limited, not produced in France and they would have been 'old fashioned' by then. So the obvious target for issue would have been for Home Reserve units within France. not the frontline reserves. They would have been disposed of - or forgotten about - afterwards.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

To finish off this thread, the pistol is back together and working as it should!!! All the rust removed and contact parts smoothed for ease of operation - without much metal removal - otherwise it won't work as it should. Given the condition of the metal, the decision was taken to blue the metal, as it would have been, but also to 'age' that bluing once finished. Two stages - a 'first blue' followed much later (after I had finished playing with it!) with a better blue, but then aging it using fine wire-wool.

The only part needed was a new grip which could only be obtained from the USA. The old grip was well gone, still sound, but very worn and not as wide as it was originally which made it quite hard to hold. The fact that it was not same- serialled made this an easier choice. The old grip will still be retained. The new part was 'unfinished' and reduced in price for clearance, but the postage and export duty almost doubled it!! (Apparently my UK supplier tells me that Pietta are seriously considering producing more spares for the Starrs, but won't appear for a few years)

There was no need to make any parts but the bolt (cylinder stop) spring needed bending up a little. Not as easy as it sounds. As for the grip, the term 'unfinished' meant that it had not been fitted and was just as it came from the machine.
View attachment 517396
It was waaaaaaaay too large externally, as expected, but fitted well to the original parts requiring little 'excavation'. Fitting was just the first task - getting it to screw on to the pistol. It sounds so easy, but it requires some woodworking skill to fit a hardwood grip and sussing out what needs removing and what stays, You cannot 'undo' removal. Then came the paring down to get it reasonably flush with the metalwork - without spoiling the outline shape or those rebates at the top to get it flush with the frame join. BTW - I last did any real woodwork in 3rd Year grammar school (Grade 8), but it stays with you.

Once that was done came the 'ageing' - putting a few dents, bumps and stains on it to match the condition of the metal. Next was wood staining and oiling with BLO. It provides a MUCH better hold, but this beastie is VERY muzzle heavy compared to my British 44s (shorter barrel - 6"). I will post a photo of the finished pistol on a new thread later.

Historical Note: How come I find this on the UK market? Research tells me that most of the Starr pistols were withdrawn after the war as they were surplus to requirements. Most, if not all, were sold out of service in batches to civilian firms who sold them on. Few seem to have been converted to cartridge. There was a demand for firearms from France around 1866 when the Prussians defeated the Austro-Hungarians and again in 1870 for the Franco-Prussian War. Both DA and SA Starrs were sent, I presume bought from the civilian armories. Many other older weapons including pistols, rifles and carbines were sent too, but I suspect few saw any action as ammunition would have been limited, not produced in France and they would have been 'old fashioned' by then. So the obvious target for issue would have been for Home Reserve units within France. not the frontline reserves. They would have been disposed of - or forgotten about - afterwards.

Historical Note:

Starr conversions to cartridge are no scarce, and most of them I've seen have foreign proofmarks, usually Belgian proofs on the cartridge cylinder.

Just as our Civil War allowed the armouries and wholesalers of Europe to unload old arms to our buyers, the Franco Prussian War allowed us to unload surplus stuff to France.

Supposedly, a prussian general or politician, asked whether Germany had enough arms at the start of the War, replied that if so, after the French fled the field of the first battle, the weapons they discarded would suffice to supply the Germans

 

[Old Soldier]

Historical Note:

Starr conversions to cartridge are no scarce, and most of them I've seen have foreign proofmarks, usually Belgian proofs on the cartridge cylinder.

Just as our Civil War allowed the armouries and wholesalers of Europe to unload old arms to our buyers, the Franco Prussian War allowed us to unload surplus stuff to France.

Supposedly, a prussian general or politician, asked whether Germany had enough arms at the start of the War, replied that if so, after the French fled the field of the first battle, the weapons they discarded would suffice to supply the Germans

As I said on another thread, you learn a LOT from this site. I have seen a pinfire one online but few others. BTW - They were sold to Germany too.

Don't forget that we Brits cannot hold a lot of real firearms and pistols are completely banned except for single-shot black powder guns and replica cap and ball revolvers which are Section 1 firearms. This requires locked security. membership of a club and access to a registered range including inspections of property, no criminal record and two references. I have this one because it is classed as an antique - for display or collection only. Despite the fact it was manufactured in 1863, to fire it, I would need Section 7.2 licencing, and, all the provisors in Section 1. In addition, I would also need an Explosives Licence for the black powder, all of which cost loads of $$$$ and take months to achieve.

Bit different from Over There.

 

[beepster]

Congrats on your purchase...looks great! I own several oldies in like condition. I enjoy the story more than the guns. I really do not understand the premiums paid for the higher condition guns. If you own a high condition oldie it probably spent the last 100+ years or so in someone's sock drawer not doing anything...

 

[Old Soldier]

Congrats on your purchase...looks great! I own several oldies in like condition. I enjoy the story more than the guns. I really do not understand the premiums paid for the higher condition guns. If you own a high condition oldie it probably spent the last 100+ years or so in someone's sock drawer not doing anything...

In playing with this one, I noticed that the heavy pitting on the left rear of the frame is where your thumb is when firing (single hand grip of course!) Sweat pitting?
I love the history - and the mechanics. Colt-lovers will hate me for it, bit this revolver has many technical advancements over the Colt revolvers and is far simpler in operation. The cylinder has twice the number of lock notches because, unlike the Colts, you can rest the hammer uncocked BETWEEN the nipples, the bolt locking the cylinder, so will not discharge if dropped or the hammer is otherwise struck.