Something I wish I could disbelieve...

Elennsar

Colonel
Joined
May 14, 2008
Location
California
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=026/0772

Or http://tinyurl.com/ybb8vp9

We have but little interest in the value of slaves, but there is one matter in thisconnection about which we feel a very deep interest. We are opposed to negro equality. To prevent this we are willing to spare the last man, down to the point where women and children begin to suffer for food and clothing; when these begin to suffer and die, rather than see them equalized with an inferior race we will die with them. Everything, even life itself, stands pledged to the cause; but that our greatest strength may be employed to the best advantage and the struggle...


And people wonder why the Confederacy is considered to be deeply morally wrong. That sentiment of prejudice is so hateful as to scare me.
 
Who was D.W. Siler? Whoever he was, he was full of it, just like all those folks who claimed they'd leave the country if the Confederacy lost. (OK, some of them did, but most managed to get over it.) Obviously, the entire white population of Macon County did not die to the last man, woman and child over this issue or any other. That's so over the top I almost find it kinda funny. What a doof.

In any event, Lincoln said the same thing regarding negro equality, except that he didn't say he was willing to die to prevent it. But Lincoln didn't go in for that sort of purple prose melodrama.
 
A doof without any reason to show off his doofiness, which is what's worrisome. A politician claiming that could just be making a butthead out of themselves.

Lincoln never claimed opposition to "negro equality" - he may have been shaky on the issue of believing in it, but he wasn't opposed to the idea of blacks having the basic rights.

In any case, its the kind of thing that goes beyond purple prose into dribeling insanity, in my opinion.

Its fortunately not - I think - reflective of the average individual, and certainly not of actual action - but its still scary.
 
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=026/0772

Or http://tinyurl.com/ybb8vp9

We have but little interest in the value of slaves, but there is one matter in thisconnection about which we feel a very deep interest. We are opposed to negro equality. To prevent this we are willing to spare the last man, down to the point where women and children begin to suffer for food and clothing; when these begin to suffer and die, rather than see them equalized with an inferior race we will die with them. Everything, even life itself, stands pledged to the cause; but that our greatest strength may be employed to the best advantage and the struggle...


And people wonder why the Confederacy is considered to be deeply morally wrong. That sentiment of prejudice is so hateful as to scare me.



I would not judge the whole Southern Confederacy based upon that account. There were several classes of white man in the South, at that time, and this man sounds as if he is from that lowest extremity. I imagine he owned no slaves, and probably had very little contact with any, being a 'mountain' person. He is more worried about the next crop than he is anything else, and he obviously is a worker on his own sod. In truth, I would wager that he was his own slave, and that they lived so close to the edge of extinction that he could care less about anything but
making sure his family was able to fend off starvation.
He is not worried about losing his slaves 'cause he ain't got none! And none to stay back and feed the family, neither...

What shocks me is that he could write.

They are late getting going, and into the war, and fear being drafted, and the shame that would go with that. Not exactly on the cutting edge of Confederate sympathy!

To avoid this, they want to start their own company and pick and choose where they will serve. How kind of them.
The war is beginning to touch them all, and now they see that their isolation will not any longer protect them.

I can see him meeting his first black man up close, and personal, and seeing things a little less xenophobically.

Of course he is opposed to negro 'equality', just like the Northern dirt farmers were. In slavery, a rich man feeds all these people, and keeps them out of his land, and out of his way. Free them, and guess what? They need a place to live, and something to eat... This throws off the balance of supply and demand.

I bet he was against 'negro equality'.

But save for sounding like Stephens, or some of his intolerant ilk, I imagine that his main interests, despite
his flare of 'patriotism' in the letter, had to do with family survival, and eating...

I think it had less to do with a slave's color, and his inferior status, and more to do with his need to be fed, just like everyone else.


Just a thought.


54th
 
A doof without any reason to show off his doofiness, which is what's worrisome. A politician claiming that could just be making a butthead out of themselves.
He probably thinks it increases his standing with his neighbors, which is a form of politics in itself.
Lincoln never claimed opposition to "negro equality" - he may have been shaky on the issue of believing in it, but he wasn't opposed to the idea of blacks having the basic rights.
He wasn't shaky on the issue. He was quite sure. :) Yes he did believe they should be equal under the law, but that's where it stopped as far as this equality business. Somebody posted the speech recently; if it wasn't midnight I'd go try and find it.
In any case, its the kind of thing that goes beyond purple prose into dribeling insanity, in my opinion.

Its fortunately not - I think - reflective of the average individual, and certainly not of actual action - but its still scary.
I think it's just stupid. It's some guy running his mouth and having no intention whatever of backing it up, like so many others. It's one thing to say you don't believe in it; adding that we're all gonna diiiie ratchets up the hysteria level to fairly amusing proportions, in the same manner as a child threatening to hold his breath until he passes out and dies and then we'll all be sorry we were so mean.
 
Lincoln never claimed opposition to "negro equality" - he may have been shaky on the issue of believing in it, but he wasn't opposed to the idea of blacks having the basic rights.

Well, I don't know about that....


Now irrespective of the moral aspect of this question as to whether there is a right or wrong in enslaving a negro, I am still in favor of our new Territories being in such a condition that white men may find a home — may find some spot where they can better their condition — where they can settle upon new soil and better their condition in life. I am in favor of this not merely (I must say it here as I have elsewhere) for our own people who are born amongst us, but as an outlet for free white people every where, the world over [reply to Douglas on 15 October 1858].


A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together.... Such separation, if ever affected at all, must be affected by coloniza tion.... The enterprise is a difficult one, but "where there is a will there is a way"; and what colonization needs now is a hearty will. Will springs from the two elements of moral sense and self-interest. Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and at the same time, favorable to, or at least not against, our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be.

..[W]hy... should the people of your race be colonized, and where? Why should they leave the country? This is, perhaps, the first question for consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated.

You here are freemen, I suppose... but even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. You are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoys.... Owing to the existence of the two races on this continent, I need not recount to you the effects upon white men growing out of the institution of slavery. 



I believe in its general evil effects on the white race. See our present condition — the country engaged in war — our white men cutting one another's throats — none know ing how far it will extend — and then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or the other.... It is better for us both therefore to be separated.... [speech delivered at the Executive Mansion on 14 August 1862]

I have urged the colonization of the negroes, and I shall continue. My Emancipation Proclamation was linked with this plan. There is no room for two distinct races of white men in America, much less for two distinct races of whites and blacks.

Within twenty years we can peacefully colonize the negro and give him our language, literature, religion, and system of government under conditions in which he can rise to the full measure of manhood. This he can never do here. We can never attain the ideal union our fathers dreamed of, with millions of an alien, inferior race among us, whose assimilation is neither possible nor desirable [address delivered at Washington, D.C.; in Roy P. Basler, The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Volume V, pages 371-375].


Now, I disagree with Mr. Lincoln whole-heartily here. Neither God, Whom he also blamed, nor the Negro Slave, was the cause of Mr. Lincoln's War.

It was what Jefferson said in his letter to Lafayette; the Anglomen of the North gaining an equality in the general government!

Which is what led to the Slave question being any sort of a question, and also to God being the cause...

Not because of the slaves... but because of 'Eastern' agitators!



54th
 
He probably thinks it increases his standing with his neighbors, which is a form of politics in itself.

Perhaps. Hard to tell from one letter - though I think unless he shared this letter (no sign of any response by Vance in the OR yet, incidently), it wasn't going to do much good.

He wasn't shaky on the issue. He was quite sure. :) Yes he did believe they should be equal under the law, but that's where it stopped as far as this equality business. Somebody posted the speech recently; if it wasn't midnight I'd go try and find it.

Point being, Lincoln was much closer to the issue of equality - particularly by this point (several years after the speech I believe you're refering to - the one about "making jurors out of negros" and such?) than many of his day.

I think it's just stupid. It's some guy running his mouth and having no intention whatever of backing it up, like so many others. It's one thing to say you don't believe in it; adding that we're all gonna diiiie ratchets up the hysteria level to fairly amusing proportions, in the same manner as a child threatening to hold his breath until he passes out and dies and then we'll all be sorry we were so mean.

Problem is that there's no reason for him to run his mouth to the governor.

Still, it is definately ludicrious. Serious or distorted, no one writing that kind of letter should be allowed command of anything more serious than their bowels.

The main reason I'm skeptical of it just being amusing is that in a world where people have lit themselves on fire as a means of protest, that someone would write that not intentionally being over the top is a little more believable than I'm comfortable with.

I doubt he did follow through, but its still...

Really, really ridiculous.
 
Oh, I'm sure he thought he meant every word, when he wrote it. I'm just saying he's another one of those guys who was all hat and no cattle when push came to shove. Since I've never heard that the white population of Macon County starved and froze themselves to death over losing the war or whatever, as this guy threatened they would do, the only conclusion I can draw is that he was some nut who was just flat full of it. These people are everywhere and attach themselves to all sorts of causes, some good, some not.
 
Neither God, Whom he also blamed, nor the Negro Slave, was the cause of Mr. Lincoln's War.

It was what Jefferson said in his letter to Lafayette; the Anglomen of the North gaining an equality in the general government!

54th

My goodness, how terrible that would have been for the more populous, free north to gain "equality" in the government with the slave south. No wonder the slave south refused to accept the result of a free and fair electon in favor of disunion.

Who knows what an "equality" federal government might do? The secessionists knew what they feared it might do -- endanger their ownership of human property.
 
My goodness, how terrible that would have been for the more populous, free north to gain "equality" in the government with the slave south. No wonder the slave south refused to accept the result of a free and fair electon in favor of disunion.

Who knows what an "equality" federal government might do? The secessionists knew what they feared it might do -- endanger their ownership of human property.

Had it stopped with Slavery, and the ruination of the Southern political power, which kept a check on the
growing Northern vote, the other 94% of the non-slave owning South might have done what the Northern Federalists did with Pickering's Secessionists... told them NO.

But this was vastly different. While the Northern Federalists were content to remain in the Jeffersonian Southern government, even though their personal agendas for socialism were not being met...

The Southern people were looking at a brand new sectional government taking hold, threatening unheard of tariffs,
across the board emancipation with no aforethought except to keep these freed slaves in the South, or ship them out and a consolidated general government that even the most ardent supporters of Lincoln today seem to chafe at, under its present structuring... And what of these abolitionists and their murderous ways? The general government will now support this!

Today the Black Southerners, tomorrow the rest of us!

No, time for some Homeland Security!

Aggrandizement, usurpation, the loss of a state's rights, and its identity as a political power... the Northern states
becoming the general government, at the expense of the residue, and the South becoming the Milch Cow of the North!

What's next? Back into the forced attendance puritanical churches, and their stocks and pillories?

Back into ENGLAND again?

Jefferson greatly feared it. Davis saw it coming.

The wonderful North, who had sixty years earlier so needed the South to separate from England, was, according to Jefferson, becoming a traitor, and going back to England again, in its form of proposed government! A king!

Apparently they didn't like the several states being so loosely controlled as the Southern government style of the several states dictated...

So, the Slaves which the North brought to the South are not the only issue, and are, according to Davis, not the 'cause, but an incident only'.

54th
 

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