NF Solferino

[Cavalier]

I wonder if any one has read the book Decision On The Mincio: The Battle of Solferino, 1859, by Bruno Dotto, and if so what you may have thought of it. It's not American Civil War I know, but I have the impression that the Battle had some influence on military thinking in the U.S. at the time.

And of course there is General Phil Kearny's somewhat spectacular participation in the battle, (thats just my opinion of course).

Thanks, John

 

[tullock]

Here's a rare photo of some of Solferino's dead.

 

[Cavalier]

@tullock Thank you very much. I haven't seen many photos relating to Solferino. Not a lot written about it, at least in English, that I am aware of.

I do know it was quite bloody bit not much else.

John

 

[James N.]

I don't know specifically about their participation at Solferino but the French Zouaves d'Afrique throughout the Italian Campaign created the craze for them that raged on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line.

 

[Cavalier]

James N. I guess we can blame the French for the Zouave craze then. I'm under the impression that the French did pretty well in Crimea too. I don't think that the Zouaves are the fops they are are sometimes portrayed.

John

 

[trice]

James N. I guess we can blame the French for the Zouave craze then. I'm under the impression that the French did pretty well in Crimea too. I don't think that the Zouaves are the fops they are are sometimes portrayed.

John

The French Zouaves were highly trained light infantry units, originally from North Africa (Algeria and Tunisia), recruited from the Berber tribes. Napoleon III's "victories" at Magenta and Solferino in 1859, seemingly winning the war in Italy with the Austrians, created the craze, based on the idea that "Zouave tactics" was the answer to the military problem of filed small arms on the battlefield.

The craze moved across the Atlantic, popularized by Elmer Ellsworth and his Chicago Zouave Cadets military drill team. They toured the big cities of the northeast in 1860, performing at the Republican Convention, West Point, and the White House among other places. When the war started, he commanded the New York Fire Zouaves. He died May 24, 1861 in Alexandria -- thee first Union officer to die in the Civil War.

Trivia: Napoleon III's triumph in Italy led to the introduction of two new hot fashion colors at the next year's Paris fashion season: Magenta and Solferino.

 

[Cavalier]

@trice Thank you very much for all that.

I have heard of the color Magenta but never made the connection. I never heard of the color Solferino, but my fashion sense doesn't go much farther than blue jeans and some very fashionable sweatshirts.

I get the impression that the Zouave regiments of the European armies generally performed pretty credibly.

I'm going to try to get my hands on a copy of the book I mentioned above in any case. Solferino is a battle that caught my interest years ago but one I have never been able to find out much about.

John

 

[trice]

@trice Thank you very much for all that.

I have heard of the color Magenta but never made the connection. I never heard of the color Solferino, but my fashion sense doesn't go much farther than blue jeans and some very fashionable sweatshirts.

I get the impression that the Zouave regiments of the European armies generally performed pretty credibly.

I'm going to try to get my hands on a copy of the book I mentioned above in any case. Solferino is a battle that caught my interest years ago but one I have never been able to find out much about.

John

After the 1859 War in Italy between the French and Austrians, perhaps the most important conclusions were those of Helmuth von Moltke (known as "the Elder"). He wrote a history of the war for the Prussian General Staff in 1862. He became a Field Marshall and Chief-of-Staff for Prussia (and, after Unification, Germany) for 30 years. He is known as "the Elder" because his nephew "the Younger" was head of the General Staff from 1906-1914.

There was, at the time, a great military dispute about what the mass introduction of rifled small-arms would mean for battlefield tactics and operations. The French, since they won, believed their system of Napoleonic tactics raised to the highest possible level by training was the answer to the firepower/shock question. The Austrians, since they lost, decided their reliance on firepower was wrong and switched back to a reliance on shock (IOW, the traditional Austrian bravery). Von Moltke decided that the war showed firepower would triumph.

Shortly afterwards, the Prussians committed to re-arming the troops completely with the Dreyse "Needle Gun"; they also began the steady conversion to the Krupp breech-loading artillery. The Prussians then won the 1864 "Potato War" with Denmark, the 1866 Austro-Prussian War, and the 1870-71 Franco-Prussian War.

Meanwhile, working in his father's leather-goods store back in Illinois, U. S. Grant was commenting over the cracker-barrel to locals about the 1859 war in Italy, relying on newspaper accounts.

 

[Cavalier]

@trice I have to thank you again for all this! If I ever get my hands on a copy of the book I'll let you know what I think about it.

The Prussians after Frederick the Great I know next to nothing about so I find this all facinating.

John

 

[1950lemans]

I do know that this bloody battle gave rise to the Red Cross organization.

 

[Cavalier]

@1950lemans That's about all I know too. Hopefully the book will be loaded with lots of meaty tactical details.

John

 

[James N.]

@trice I have to thank you again for all this! If I ever get my hands on a copy of the book I'll let you know what I think about it.

The Prussians after Frederick the Great I know next to nothing about so I find this all facinating.

John

The Prussians after Frederick the Great thought they knew it all - that is, until October 1806 when Napoleon seriously disabused them of their arcane notions in one of the most lopsided campaigns he ever conducted. They had foolishly sat out the previous year when by combining with the Austrians and Russians they might have accomplished something like they were to successfully do in 1813-14. Stupidly they decided to go it alone in 1806 thinking their vaunted Frederickian strategy and tactics would prove decisive; unfortunately for them, they were wrong. However, it was from this debacle they learned their lesson well and reformers like Scharnhorst and Guisenau copied shamelessly the French model which resulted in notable successes under determined leaders like Blucher, von Kleist, and Bulow.

 

[Cavalier]

James N. Thank you very much for the above. I am ashamed to say I find the Prussians of the Napoleonic era very confusing. So, gutless wonder that I am, I have avoided reading up on them like the plague. The Napoleonic French, now I can get my head around them for the most part.

Francophile that I am however, I can't help but admire old Blucher somewhat. Maybe it's because I am now as old he was at Waterloo, (actually little older).

John

 

[James N.]

James N. Thank you very much for the above. I am ashamed to say I find the Prussians of the Napoleonic era very confusing. So, gutless wonder that I am, I have avoided reading up on them like the plague. The Napoleonic French, now I can get my head around them for the most part.

Francophile that I am however, I can't help but admire old Blucher somewhat. Maybe it's because I am now as old he was at Waterloo, (actually little older).

John

Look up: Jena and Auerstadt, they're the PERFECT battles, especially the latter. Even Napoleon wasn't sure exactly what was going on - he only knew he'd smashed the Prussians and they were flying before Murat's pursuit. Then he received a message from Marshal Davout informing him the HE (Davout) had smashed the Prussians, killed their commander, and they were in flight. Turned out BOTH of them were right! Outnumbered, Davout and his corps had fought the perfect defensive battle against over half the Prussian army, even repelling repeated cavalry charges led by Blucher in person, before going over to the attack and driving the Prussians off the field. Murat's pursuit was classic; a fortified city even surrendered to a brigade of cavalry commanded by Murat's deputy Gen. Lasalle.

 

[Cavalier]

James N. I will check into that and thank you very much. You might get a kick out of hearing that in our Empire games over the years, as a French player, I lost many more games than I won. No Davout here it seems! And although we almost never played them as the historic 3rd. Corps, I painted up Davout's Corps for 1809 back in the 80s.

And LaSalle, well that's what a cavalryman should be.

John