Sergeant Stripes pointed down

[KILLroy1978]

I was talking with a friend of mine on the subject of NCO stripes and the reason why they were pointed down. Does anyone have an explanation on why The stripes are "V"d down during the ACW and later 19th century and Then "V"d with point up in modern 20th century military?

 

[major bill]

I have never read why. The Army has changed the direction the stripes pointed several times. At first the stripes pointed up, but around the start of the Mexican American War they pointed down The 1847 regulation had the stripes point up once again. By the start of the Civil War the stripes pointed down again.

But why is an interesting question. If we do not have an authoritative answer by the end of May I will try asking Col. William K. Emerson, author of the books Chevron: Illustrated history and Catalog of U.S. Army Insignia and U.S. Army Soldiers and Their Chevrons. If anyone knows it would be Col. Emerson who is considered one of the nations leading experts on the subject of Army chevrons.

 

[rhettbutler1865]

I never thought about that--can't wait to hear the answer.

 

[thomas aagaard]

My guess would be fashion. If you look at other armies that also used similar Chevrons they also changed how and where they where worn over time.

 

[kholland]

Here is some info on a website regarding the evolution of chevrons over time. They don't explain why the chevrons had their direction changed. Another website mentioned that the downward facing chevrons took up quite a bit of space on the arm (The angle of the Civil War chevrons did seem to be wider). I don't see how that was the reason but it is possible. Here is their explanation and link to the site.

Nineteenth Century chevrons were worn point down. In the smoky, black powder environment of the 19th-Century battlefield chevrons needed to be large so they could be seen. In 1902 chevrons were redesigned and worn point up. With smokeless powder and accurate firearms smaller chevrons were necessary to avoid making noncommissioned officers targets.

http://howardlanham.tripod.com/chevrons/datingchevrons.html

 

[major bill]

For almost half of the Nineteenth Century they pointed up. There are often tall tales of thing like this to include why certain branches wore certain color trim. Most are folk folk tale or myths.

 

[kepi]

Outstanding question and something I have always wondered about as well.
It does seem military fashion is the main reason for the changing of directions.

This also raises another question: has US officer insignia changed any over time?

 

[M.Warren]

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/HeraldryMulti.aspx?CategoryId=9168&grp=2&menu=Uniformed Services

Some units/branches still wear their chevrons pointing down. Cavalry, band etc. The above link is a short history of rank insignia and how they've changed over the years. Like said before, it went back and forth for close to a couple hundred years. I don't think it really became standard for most branches until about 1947 when the USAF became independent. Very interesting and something I've really never thought of. Good post!

 

[civilwarincolor]

This also raises another question: has US officer insignia changed any over time?

Well, yes and no. The symbols are the same for most officer ranks in the Army, but the colors have changes. For the Navy the stripes for ranking has changed drastically. The collar rank for Navy (for the most part) and Marine corps followed the Army standards below. When looking at a CW photograph you can often easily tell the rank of the individual with the exception of Major/Lt. Col. since the only difference is color.

Let's start with the Army ranks. Except for senior officers, all ranks are organized by color
Artillery Red
Cavalry Yellow
Infantry Light blue

The ranks from bottom to top:
2nd Lt. no symbol only color (today it is a single gold bar)
1st Lt. a single gold bar (today a single silver bar)
Capt. two gold bars (today two silver bars)
All other rank symbols and colors have not changed

Civil War ranks:

Now the Navy, this is much more complicated. As I mentioned above the collar symbols (for equivalent rank) are the same for most of the war, but include an anchor to indicate Navy. The stripes on the sleeves (which also indicate rank) varied in number and thickness and number of stripes and it is often difficult to tell the rank unless you know the year the image was taken so you can reference it (see chart below).

For those not familiar with Navy vs. Army/Marine Corp ranks here is equivalent structure from bottom to top:

Navy Rank symbols from the Civil War by date:

 

[alexjack]

Good post!

 

[TinCan]

Very interesting post, enjoyed it.

 

[hendrickms24]

I don't know the answer but if you look at the US Army it always follows the uniforms and tactics of the Major power of the time (or military fashion of the time.) I think we US stopped following other countries leads after WW2.

 

[Dave Hull]

I may be off on this one, but didn't the Marine Corps wear their chevrons point up during the Civil War? Maybe they Army went point down to distinguish themselves from the Corps.

 

[yellowthornoftexas]

I may be off on this one, but didn't the Marine Corps wear their chevrons point up during the Civil War? Maybe they Army went point down to distinguish themselves from the Corps.

Yes, you're correct, the Marines wore them pointed up. I'm sure somewhere in my Marine Corps trivia I've read it somewhere but through time, I've forgotten why they were worn differently from the army. It could be that, as stated, just wanted to be different.

 

[hendrickms24]

I may be off on this one, but didn't the Marine Corps wear their chevrons point up during the Civil War? Maybe they Army went point down to distinguish themselves from the Corps.

I doubt it since the Marines were so few in number why would that be a concern? 1st Battle of Bull Run was the lone time (that I'm aware) the Marines were at a battalion level during the war.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

For almost half of the Nineteenth Century they pointed up. There are often tall tales of thing like this to include why certain branches wore certain color trim. Most are folk folk tale or myths.

I am confused.......Why is it a "tall tale" regarding color of trim and branch of service?....I'll agree that, in Confederate Service, there are instances of Cavalry recieiving Artillery jackets, but that was done out of necessity, not due to lack of regard to service trim color......

 

[major bill]

I am confused.......Why is it a "tall tale" regarding color of trim and branch of service?....I'll agree that, in Confederate Service, there are instances of Cavalry recieiving Artillery jackets, but that was done out of necessity, not due to lack of regard to service trim color......

There are many tales of why the U.S. Army or Marines chose a certain color for a certain branch. Most of this is folk lore. Branch color was not usually assigned for a particular reason other than it was was color that branch traditionally wore. For example: U.S. Marines do not wear red trim on their dress uniforms for the blood they shed.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

There are many tales of why the U.S. Army or Marines chose a certain color for a certain branch. Most of this is folk lore. Branch color was not usually assigned for a particular reason other than it was was color that branch traditionally wore. For example: U.S. Marines do not wear red trim on their dress uniforms for the blood they shed.

So it's not a "Tall Tail"......It's tradition?

 

[major bill]

Yes it is trim color is usually a tradition. Occasionally trim color is selected for a reason. For example in the pre Civil War era green was for rifle regiments; prior to that rifle regiments wore green uniforms but is uncertain if that is the reason green trim was selected. I have read were the Army looked at a particular color fading to fast and thus becoming difficult to see. Why did the Infantry switch from light blue chevrons to white chevrons in the late 19th century?

 

[KILLroy1978]

here is another question for you. If during the civil war the Armies chevrons were pointed downwards, than what direction were the chevrons of West Point classmen?