Sack coat

[Billw12280]

Hello all, it's been a while since I've posted but I just received this coat today and wanted to share and get everybody's opinion. This coat was purchased from a reputable dealer whom I've purchased several items from. They stated this coat came from the collection of Josh Landis out of Las Vegas who acquired it from MGM studios, being used in movies in the 1950s and it would fool 7 out of 10 people as to authenticity. The coat has a large amount of repairs made to it but they seem to be very well done and are not extremely obvious at a glance of the exterior facings of the coat. The buttons appear to be original Civil War buttons. There are no tags or labels of any kind inside the coat. The fabric is a very light weight flannel that when held up to the light can be seen through. This coat is unlined but does not have the customary flat felled seams of an original coat. It does have the kidney shaped breast pocket made from the same material as the coat fabric but the sewing seems odd to me as it extends to just under the arm pit area. I seem to remember most movies from the 1950s used original surplus 5 button sack coats and uniforms from the IW to SpanAm War. I want to be clear I have no delusions that this is an authentic Civil War coat but it makes me wonder, were original sack coats ever found in Hollywood wardrobe departments? I have only seen one original sack coat up close but did not get a chance to examine it. How close is this coat to an original sack coat?

 

[James N.]

This looks believable or at least possible to me. When I was working on Glory back in 1989 a friend of mine who was working in wardrobe found and segregated out an entire rack of original uniform jackets from the stock that had been rented for the movie. No Civil War sack coats, though there were probably a dozen ca. 1890's five-buttons and a half-dozen or more artillery (and possibly cavalry) shell jackets. I remember one eccentric old reenactor fellow around that time who used an ORIGINAL cartridge box and what was supposedly a four-button threadbare original he had gotten from a defunct costume company that closely resembled yours.

 

[Billw12280]

This looks believable or at least possible to me. When I was working on Glory back in 1989 a friend of mine who was working in wardrobe found and segregated out an entire rack of original uniform jackets from the stock that had been rented for the movie. No Civil War sack coats, though there were probably a dozen ca. 1890's five-buttons and a half-dozen or more artillery (and possibly cavalry) shell jackets. I remember one eccentric old reenactor fellow around that time who used an ORIGINAL cartridge box and what was supposedly a four-button threadbare original he had gotten from a defunct costume company that closely resembled yours.

Glory is one of my all time favorite movies. It amazes me that even in the 1980s original uniforms were being rented out for use in movies. I have heard stories that during the centennial years many reenactors used original uniforms and field equipment. It is definitely possible to still find them in an older reenactors collections where relatives may not realize they are authentic because "that's what dad/grandad wore to the Gettysburg reenactment". The sack coat is so rare I doubt that would occur very often but anything is possible. I loved the look of this coat and to be honest I would be one of the 7 out of 10 that got fooled by it if I hadn't purchased it from a reputable source that told me honestly what it is. I was a little shocked that it did not have a label or markings identifying it to the studio though, I figured a large studio like MGM would have their wardrobe labelled.

 

[Package4]

A very nice representative piece, though I doubt it could be proven to have been made for ACW service, there are way too many anomalies for the simple Union sack. The cuffs are not scalloped, the seams are not flat felled (if they were, the raw edges would not be visible), the body of the coat appears to be 4 pieces, while the simple sack was a 2 piece body. The weave of the fabric is off and the length of the coat seems off. I suspect that this was once a 5 button coat shortened at the fifth button hole which is often done.

I love the look and it is possible it may be a state coat, but that is a whole other can of worms......

 

[Package4]

A very nice representative piece, though I doubt it could be proven to have been made for ACW service, there are way too many anomalies for the simple Union sack. The cuffs are not scalloped, the seams are not flat felled (if they were, the raw edges would not be visible), the body of the coat appears to be 4 pieces, while the simple sack was a 2 piece body. The weave of the fabric is off and the length of the coat seems off. I suspect that this was once a 5 button coat shortened at the fifth button hole which is often done.

I love the look and it is possible it may be a state coat, but that is a whole other can of worms......

Actually after looking at it some more, I think this is most likely a studio produced piece, the kidney pocket goes all the way to the collar and the seam stitching would not have held up on campaign. A costumer could make these up in record time and have the quantity needed for some close ups that closely resembled originals. They could back fill with whatever military surplus they could find.

 

[Billw12280]

A very nice representative piece, though I doubt it could be proven to have been made for ACW service, there are way too many anomalies for the simple Union sack. The cuffs are not scalloped, the seams are not flat felled (if they were, the raw edges would not be visible), the body of the coat appears to be 4 pieces, while the simple sack was a 2 piece body. The weave of the fabric is off and the length of the coat seems off. I suspect that this was once a 5 button coat shortened at the fifth button hole which is often done.

I love the look and it is possible it may be a state coat, but that is a whole other can of worms......

I agree this is not an original piece as much as I would love to have an original sack coat they are too rare and, unfortunately out of my price range when they do come available. I bought this being the next best thing and from my limited knowledge it appeared to be as you say, a good representative piece and I also loved the look of it. Can you explain what you mean when you say the weave of the fabric is off? Do you have any close up images that show what the fabric weave looks like on an original, just trying to better educate myself. Also would the fabric develop the same stiffness as, say a pair of trousers or a frock coat? This cloth still has a lot of "spring" and a softer feel than most of the other CW fabric I have inspected but it is a different fabric than I'm used to so I'm not sure. The rear center coat seam measures 29" from the collar to the tail, the sleeves are 22" from the shoulder seam to the cuff and the collar measures 2" tall.

 

[Billw12280]

I found this article from NJ Sekela that gives some good information for anybody who is interested. Unfortunately I have been unable to find a copy of For Fatigue Purposes so this is the most comprehensive article I have found.

 

[Package4]

I agree this is not an original piece as much as I would love to have an original sack coat they are too rare and, unfortunately out of my price range when they do come available. I bought this being the next best thing and from my limited knowledge it appeared to be as you say, a good representative piece and I also loved the look of it. Can you explain what you mean when you say the weave of the fabric is off? Do you have any close up images that show what the fabric weave looks like on an original, just trying to better educate myself. Also would the fabric develop the same stiffness as, say a pair of trousers or a frock coat? This cloth still has a lot of "spring" and a softer feel than most of the other CW fabric I have inspected but it is a different fabric than I'm used to so I'm not sure. The rear center coat seam measures 29" from the collar to the tail, the sleeves are 22" from the shoulder seam to the cuff and the collar measures 2" tall.

You should be able to see the weave in the picture to the right, in addition to the scalloped cuffs in this Schuylkill Arsenal example.

 

[Billw12280]

You should be able to see the weave in the picture to the right, in addition to the scalloped cuffs in this Schuylkill Arsenal example.
View attachment 348905View attachment 348906

Thank you for posting this, although my eye is not as tuned to the variations in fabric weaves, to me they look very similar although yours is certainly a deeper indigo blue than mine. I did not initially notice the lack of scalloped cuffs until you pointed it out in your earlier thread. Is that a characteristic of all sack coats or just federal coats? I understand there were several manufacturers of clothing during the war and construction and color could and often did vary greatly even though there were set regulations.

BTW, That is a such a beautiful coat you have, if you ever decide to sell it please let me know

 

[Package4]

Thank you for posting this, although my eye is not as tuned to the variations in fabric weaves, to me they look very similar although yours is certainly a deeper indigo blue than mine. I did not initially notice the lack of scalloped cuffs until you pointed it out in your earlier thread. Is that a characteristic of all sack coats or just federal coats? I understand there were several manufacturers of clothing during the war and construction and color could and often did vary greatly even though there were set regulations.

BTW, That is a such a beautiful coat you have, if you ever decide to sell it please let me know

The color variations were vast, in fact arsenal depot coats were made differently than contract. Depots might make sleeves from one bolt and then collars from another with the body from yet another. The resulting coat might have different hues in its parts.

Contractors were typically private tailors and as such would make the entire cost from a single bolt and dye run.

I'll keep you in mind!

 

[Package4]

I agree this is not an original piece as much as I would love to have an original sack coat they are too rare and, unfortunately out of my price range when they do come available. I bought this being the next best thing and from my limited knowledge it appeared to be as you say, a good representative piece and I also loved the look of it. Can you explain what you mean when you say the weave of the fabric is off? Do you have any close up images that show what the fabric weave looks like on an original, just trying to better educate myself. Also would the fabric develop the same stiffness as, say a pair of trousers or a frock coat? This cloth still has a lot of "spring" and a softer feel than most of the other CW fabric I have inspected but it is a different fabric than I'm used to so I'm not sure. The rear center coat seam measures 29" from the collar to the tail, the sleeves are 22" from the shoulder seam to the cuff and the collar measures 2" tall.

Looking at this again, is there any indication that it once had a lining? I do not like the seams for an unlined coat and the facings do not narrow as much as I would like to see towards the bottom, but the double stitching at the bottom of the pocket is right. You would expect to see triangle stitching at the pocket openings; I can't tell from the pictures if it has these. The length is smaller than even a size 1 ACW, truly an anomaly. I would have Dave Taylor take a look at it during one of the upcoming shows Marietta or other, certainly worth a shot.

 

[Billw12280]

Looking at this again, is there any indication that it once had a lining? I do not like the seams for an unlined coat and the facings do not narrow as much as I would like to see towards the bottom, but the double stitching at the bottom of the pocket is right. You would expect to see triangle stitching at the pocket openings; I can't tell from the pictures if it has these. The length is smaller than even a size 1 ACW, truly an anomaly. I would have Dave Taylor take a look at it during one of the upcoming shows Marietta or other, certainly worth a shot.

I was trying to determine that myself. I am unable to see anything like liner remnants which is a little troublesome to me since the seams are not flat felled. The short length of the arms also gives me pause, on most of the examples I have seen online the sleeve extends to the bottom of the coat and sometimes farther. It got me wondering, is the reason it does not have the scalloped cuff because whoever wore the coat had it shortened to suit their needs while also having the lining removed? This could have been done by the soldier assuming Civil War period authenticity ,which I'm not sold on yet, or the costume department for the reenactor/movie extra that wore it. The dye, as can be seen in some of the pictures, has the greenish hue indicative of true indigo dye which has not been used in reproduction jackets for a long time, if ever. I don't know enough about this to say for certain this is just coming from what I've read and heard. The other thing that strikes me as odd is, if this was indeed a reproduction, why would somebody spend the money to have it professionally repaired/conserved? That seems to be a lot of trouble to go to for a reproduction that could be replaced at a fraction of the cost of repairing it. That being said, if it is a movie prop like it was sold to me as, maybe somebody decided it was worth the cost. Having Dave look at it is a great idea and I do plan on going to the Ohio Civil War show in May, I'll probably bring it along so he can have a look. As I've already stated this was purchased from a reputable source who says it is not Civil War period but merely a very believeable reproduction from MGM studios wardrobe department. Until I get definitive evidence contrary to that I am going to assume it is a very well made (especially for the 1950s) movie prop.

 

[Billw12280]

You would expect to see triangle stitching at the pocket openings;

Here are some additional photos of the pocket stitching.

I also noticed one of the sleeves has an odd stitching that looks like a possible repair.

and the other sleeve

I guess it is possible that this was a lined coat and, when repaired, the lining was removed due to possibly being too tattered/worn to save? If that were the case though wouldn't the pocket be constructed differently being sewn into the lining instead of the coat?

 

[Western Reserve Volunteer]

I wonder if some of the early films about the war used originals? I'm particularly interested in Buster Keaton's The General...

 

[Billw12280]

I wonder if some of the early films about the war used originals? I'm particularly interested in Buster Keaton's The General...

I know for sure early movies used surplus shell jackets. At that time a bundle of shell jackets could be purchased for next to nothing so it was cheaper for the studios to buy or rent them than to make their own. Sack coats are another problem though, due to their utilitarian use soldiers hung on to them until they lost there usefulness and were discarded. Surplus sack coats were issued during the early years of the Indian Wars as well so I don't know how many survived outside of the soldiers who stored them away.

 

[zburkett]

For the record, I would be one of the seven. Nice find.

 

[Billw12280]

For the record, I would be one of the seven. Nice find.

That's actually what I said when I bought it. It is a very convincing piece and I'm glad I was able to acquire no matter what it turns out to be. I would be ecstatic if it turns out to be ACW vintage but I'm not holding my breath because I'm sure the seller I bought it from knows his stuff. Either way it will make an impressive display to go alongside the 9 button frock coat I'm purchasing later this year. Once I get all the pieces together I'll post pictures.

 

[James N.]

I know for sure early movies used surplus shell jackets. At that time a bundle of shell jackets could be purchased for next to nothing so it was cheaper for the studios to buy or rent them than to make their own. Sack coats are another problem though, due to their utilitarian use soldiers hung on to them until they lost there usefulness and were discarded. Surplus sack coats were issued during the early years of the Indian Wars as well so I don't know how many survived outside of the soldiers who stored them away.

Supposedly some remaining in stock during WWI or WWII were issued to German POW's!

 

[Ralph Heinz]

In the early 1970's, Hayes Otoupalik of Missoula, MT. found original 4 button sack coats (I think it was three of them) in a costume shop possibly in the Seattle area. I saw those as I've spent a lot of time at his home looking at his collection. He kept one and sold the others. If I recall correctly, he got $3,000 each at that time. He also got a number of original holsters in unissued condition from the same source which were made for Starr revolvers but which a Colt Dragoon will fit in (and everyone who has one for sale advertises it as a Colt "Dragoon" holster for big bucks -- though the holsters were made about 1863-64 by Gaylord at a time when those heavy Dragoon revolvers were practically obsolete). I got one of the holsters from Hayes but sold it to a friend years later.

It is surprising what great items he found back then by scouring costume shops as some had original items bought from Bannerman and which the costume shops were glad to get rid of as there was little call for them at that time and West Coast place far removed from the CW.

Another source was Western Costume Co. in Calif. for when they went out of business and sold their stock there were a lot of original items as well as reproductions. A friend got me two WWII DAK tunics from that sale and each had an ink stamp inside identifying it as property of WCC along with their address. They may have used these originals to make reproductions of as a lot of WWII tunics are quite small and wouldn't fit American movie actors. WCC made Civil War holsters for use in movies and they stamped them W.C.C. on the back.

Look at page 103 in The English Connection and you'll see W.C.CO. stamped on the breech of a P.53 above the Birmingham proof markings. I think it's a safe bet it belonged to that Calif. company for use in movies and they stamped it as their property.

 

[Billw12280]

In the early 1970's, Hayes Otoupalik of Missoula, MT. found original 4 button sack coats (I think it was three of them) in a costume shop possibly in the Seattle area. I saw those as I've spent a lot of time at his home looking at his collection. He kept one and sold the others. If I recall correctly, he got $3,000 each at that time. He also got a number of original holsters in unissued condition from the same source which were made for Starr revolvers but which a Colt Dragoon will fit in (and everyone who has one for sale advertises it as a Colt "Dragoon" holster for big bucks -- though the holsters were made about 1863-64 by Gaylord at a time when those heavy Dragoon revolvers were practically obsolete). I got one of the holsters from Hayes but sold it to a friend years later.

It is surprising what great items he found back then by scouring costume shops as some had original items bought from Bannerman and which the costume shops were glad to get rid of as there was little call for them at that time and West Coast place far removed from the CW.

Another source was Western Costume Co. in Calif. for when they went out of business and sold their stock there were a lot of original items as well as reproductions. A friend got me two WWII DAK tunics from that sale and each had an ink stamp inside identifying it as property of WCC along with their address. They may have used these originals to make reproductions of as a lot of WWII tunics are quite small and wouldn't fit American movie actors. WCC made Civil War holsters for use in movies and they stamped them W.C.C. on the back.

Look at page 103 in The English Connection and you'll see W.C.CO. stamped on the breech of a P.53 above the Birmingham proof markings. I think it's a safe bet it belonged to that Calif. company for use in movies and they stamped it as their property.

It's great to know it is, or at least was, possible to find something as rare as a sack coat in costume shops but you guys aren't making this any easier for me to accept that this is merely a reproduction/reenactors piece . Not that I'm complaining I just came on here "knowing" what I had but the more I look at it and discuss it the less sure I am. Does anybody have access to original Bannermans catalogs? I wonder if they ever sold sack coats? I would love for this to turn out to be an authentic piece from the ACW and it certainly has enough aspects to argue for that but it also has equal reasons to argue against that being the case. I guess the most compelling reason against it being authentic is that it came from somebody that deals specifically in Civil War items and has bought and sold authentic sack coats, so I'm assuming they know what they are talking about.

I've owned a couple of Cavalry shell jackets that had the Western Costume Co. Stamp in them myself. I think it is neat to not only have a piece of history but to have a piece of history that may have also been linked to a popular movie is pretty cool too. I don't know much about holsters, I have a book about them but have not taken the time to read and study it yet. It's on my list of things to do and I'm sure I'll get to it eventually.