Remington 1858 Markings.

[Certus]

Hi,
I'm a recently new member of this excellent forum living in the UK. I presently shoot reproduction Remington 1858 muzzle loading revolvers and through this developed a desire to own and possibly shoot an original example of these lovely old revolvers.
Original examples of these models are obviously more expensive here in the UK than in the US, but I recently acquired this Remington New Model Navy in useable condition and at an affordable cost. The Serial Number is 30262 and I wondered if anybody could advise what the significance of the 'MB' marking might be on the side of the trigger guard. I have stripped and inspected the condition of the barrel and internals and everything looks good enough to safely shoot with low black powder loads.

Thanks
Brian

 

[captaindrew]

Welcome to the forum Brian, from South Florida and the Reenactors Forum. Looks like a nice piece, congrats. Can't help with your question but I'm sure someone here will be able to help before long.

 

[Bonedaddy]

Never seen that on an 1858 and none of the information in any of my reference books show the mark. I'm guessing the initials of a previous owner.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[UCVRelics]

Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. Nice Remington. Below is the range of the 30's in the SRS it is not listed. On the MB I have seen other navies with just a B but not an MB. There should be cartouche marks on the grips. Look real close and see if there are any.

30025 A 10 64CO H 6TH OHIO VOL CAV
30738 A 65CO I 5TH ILL VOL CAV
30972 A 081064CO G 2ND ILL VOL CAV (ISSUED)

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Welcome to the Forum! Mine doesn't have a marking in that spot. Nice looking gun! The 1858 Remingtons are very accurate. I assure you that you will greatly enjoy shooting it. They are also very strongly made. Considering the condition that mine is in, we sometimes fire 40 grain FFF loads without a problem. I have no idea what condition yours is in, so I cannot advise you on the blackpowder load. Whatever the load, they are fun!!! Enjoy.

 

[Certus]

Prior to acquiring the Remington, I was unable to afford any of the equivalent large Colt models, but did manage to get my hands on this original Colt 1849 Pocket which I housed in a small box together with some reproduction accessories just for fun. This model was affordable here due to the high number produced and the relatively easy life they had compared with the belt models.

One day I hope to add a Colt 1860 Army and an 1851 Navy, but this might be some time away yet.

Brian

 

[111thNYSV]

Nice little collection.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

There's no shame in owning the 1849 Pocket, especially the 4" barrel version, my personal favorite version. My son and I luuuuuuv the Pocket Colts. They look great, and are great fun to shoot! And I like the cylinder scene better than that of the Navy. You've got yourself a nice one! How common are the original Colts in the UK? Is yours London-made? Do you see more of the London-made Colts than the American-made ones? I have a friend who has a few London-made Colts...we do see them here "across the pond". At a show back in December in Tennessee, we almost bought one … can't recall why we didn't, but the point is we do see them here.

 

[Certus]

There's no shame in owning the 1849 Pocket, especially the 4" barrel version, my personal favorite version. My son and I luuuuuuv the Pocket Colts. They look great, and are great fun to shoot! And I like the cylinder scene better than that of the Navy. You've got yourself a nice one! How common are the original Colts in the UK? Is yours London-made? Do you see more of the London-made Colts than the American-made ones? I have a friend who has a few London-made Colts...we do see them here "across the pond". At a show back in December in Tennessee, we almost bought one … can't recall why we didn't, but the point is we do see them here.

As I currently shoot reproduction Colt and Remington percussion revolvers, I really wanted to acquire original examples of these particular models for occasional use in competitions which specifically require that only guns of original manufacture are eligible. The cost was however prohibitive, so I settled for owning at least one original Colt at a price I could afford which was the 1849 Pocket. Like you, I love the 1849 Pocket especially with the 4" barrel which looks somehow more in proportion than the other Colt models.
Strangely, I have found the .36 calibre more accurate than .44 when shooting my reproduction muzzle loading revolvers, but the design of the Colt with its open top frame and poorer sight picture mean that theoretically anyway, it should be less suitable for target shooting. I'm hoping the .36 Remington Navy will provide the best of both worlds.
Original U.S. made Colt Army and Navy models in good condition are not too hard to source here in the UK at prices between £1,500 ($1,900) - £2,500 ($3,000) dependent on condition. London Colts are also less commonly found here and usually come cased or in far better cosmetic condition that the U.S. ones with consequent higher retail prices. I would expect to pay between £4,000 ($5,000) - £5,000 ($6,000) for a cased London Colt. The 1849 Pockets are also quite common, but less so with the 4" barrel for some reason. I paid £400 ($500 ) for my 1849 Pocket 10 years or so ago and would expect it to fetch nearer £1000 ($1,250) today, so quite a good investment.
Brian

 

[Certus]

The trigger guard on my Remington 1858 New Model Navy shows traces of original silver plating and I wondered if this finish was standard on the trigger guards on all Remington 1858s leaving the factory.
Brian

 

[byron ed]

Are pre-1898 pattern firearms even considered firearms in Britain? By U.S. Federal statute they are not,* and so are not restricted for transport here even though the powder they use is.*



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* Do folks here mind if I elaborate? Some states, counties and cities claim tighter restrictions for the pre-1898s, but my understanding is those restrictions are ultimately not defensible in Constitutional terms if it ever got to that.

Museums in the U.S. are in a quandary because post-1898 pattern firearms walk through their doors occasionally as loans, donations or just consults. They are required to notify local law enforcement if any kind of machine gun or fully-automatic assault rifle comes in the door -- in which case they are not to even allow a "drop" without the donator showing federal and state permissions to transport such an artifact. Then, if wanted by the museum, the first "proper"response is to engage a local registered gunsmith to de-militarize (remove pin / disable lock mechanism or barrel) the firearm before any physical acceptance of it into the collection. Any shelled ammo casings empty and drilled at the base.

But imho and experience this isn't rigidly policed by local communities nor do more than half of museums even understand what procedures they are required to adhere to or not. I suspect that down-South and out-West museums tend to be even less proactive about it, especially the private museums where they just take 'em with a hale and hearty "thanks buddy, how is it as a shooter?"

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

In Canada, the pre-1898 antique firearm laws are very similar to those in the U.S. Unless its a pre-1898 gun that fires metallic cartridges, they are not considered firearms for the purpose of buying/selling (no firearms permits required). That being said, you still need to keep them locked when transporting in your car. And, should you decide to use your antique in the commission of a crime, its antique status is negated and it becomes a "firearm" and all the penalties associated with using a firearm to commit crimes are fully applicable (which seems quite reasonable, if you ask me).

All I know about UK gun laws is they are suuuuuuper strict, even more so than in Canada, which has pretty strict laws compared to the U.S. Very strict gun laws means the weapon of choice for murders in the UK is knives. Certus, I am sure you can enlighten us on the UK laws.

 

[Certus]

In Canada, the pre-1898 antique firearm laws are very similar to those in the U.S. Unless its a pre-1898 gun that fires metallic cartridges, they are not considered firearms for the purpose of buying/selling (no firearms permits required). That being said, you still need to keep them locked when transporting in your car. And, should you decide to use your antique in the commission of a crime, its antique status is negated and it becomes a "firearm" and all the penalties associated with using a firearm to commit crimes are fully applicable (which seems quite reasonable, if you ask me).

All I know about UK gun laws is they are suuuuuuper strict, even more so than in Canada, which has pretty strict laws compared to the U.S. Very strict gun laws means the weapon of choice for murders in the UK is knives. Certus, I am sure you can enlighten us on the UK laws.

Gun laws in the UK are probably among the strictest found anywhere in the world, so please forgive the length of this explanation.

Prior to 1995 we could posses shotguns together with large calibre rifles and pistols although semi-automatic rifles were only permitted in rimfire (.22) calibre. In order to own and shoot these weapons you needed to apply for a Firearms Certificate (FAC) or Shotgun Certificate (SGC). These certificates were only granted if you could provide good reason ie full membership of a shooting club, land requiring vermin control etc. This was followed by background police and medical checks including a face to face interview with a Police Firearms Enquiry Officer (F.E.O) . The interview would include a check that security provisions were in place and that the weapons would be stored in approved gun cabinets or safes. Once this had been completed, a Section 1 Firearms or Shotgun Certificate would be issued listing the guns held and where their use was permitted. The certificate lasts for five years during which time the holder must maintain a validated register of use which must include evidence of ongoing use of each weapon over the period. Should you wish to acquire another gun or increase the quantity of ammunition you hold, it is necessary to apply for an FAC Variation which involves a slightly less vigorous application of the original application process. Fees for original and variation applications are charged to the applicant and now include an additional fee to obtain a medical letter stating that your doctor has no medical grounds for believing you should not possess firearms.
Unfortunately, there was a school shooting in 1995 at Dunblane (Scotland) where the perpetrator used a legally possessed handgun leading to a national enquiry. Despite the enquiry establishing that the main failures were attributable to police failure to implement the existing legislation, a public outcry resulted in the banning of all breech loading handguns. Rifles and muzzle loading revolvers / pistols were not included in the ban. Most shooters adapted to this by turning to pistol calibre underlever rifles, but a few of us continued with our love for pistol shooting by using reproduction muzzle loading revolvers. The downside to this was the associated procedures associated with black powder shooting, especially the need for almost immediate cleaning after each use. Another problem was that many indoor ranges didn't have the necessary ventilation installed to permit the use of black powder, meaning this was mainly confined to the outdoors. I actually prefer shooting outside, but this is not always possible during the British winter. Some small companies adapted to the situation by making so called Long Barreled Revolvers which use existing breech loading guns with longer (12") barrels and a rod permanently attached to the butt to reach the required 20" overall length qualifying it as rifle. Others adapted reproduction revolvers to smokeless by replacing the cylinder with a new one which included pockets to accommodate 209 shotgun primers and a back plate holding the firing pin. The whole gun is then submitted for proof testing before it can be legally used at indoor or outdoor ranges. I have both a standard Uberti Remington 1858 revolver and the one below which has been converted to nitro powder for use when the weather might preclude shooting outdoors. Original antique firearms can be purchased in the UK without any form of licence, but can only be used if placed on a Firearm Certificate.

Brian

 

[Trooper "D"]

Are pre-1898 pattern firearms even considered firearms in Britain? By U.S. Federal statute they are not,* and so are not restricted for transport here even though the powder they use is.*



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* Do folks here mind if I elaborate? Some states, counties and cities claim tighter restrictions for the pre-1898s, but my understanding is those restrictions are ultimately not defensible in Constitutional terms if it ever got to that.

Museums in the U.S. are in a quandary because post-1898 pattern firearms walk through their doors occasionally as loans, donations or just consults. They are required to notify local law enforcement if any kind of machine gun or fully-automatic assault rifle comes in the door -- in which case they are not to even allow a "drop" without the donator showing federal and state permissions to transport such an artifact. Then, if wanted by the museum, the first "proper"response is to engage a local registered gunsmith to de-militarize (remove pin / disable lock mechanism or barrel) the firearm before any physical acceptance of it into the collection. Any shelled ammo casings empty and drilled at the base.

But imho and experience this isn't rigidly policed by local communities nor do more than half of museums even understand what procedures they are required to adhere to or not. I suspect that down-South and out-West museums tend to be even less proactive about it, especially the private museums where they just take 'em with a hale and hearty "thanks buddy, how is it as a shooter?"

Availability of fixed ammunition is the key. An 1873 Trapdoor is still a firearm because ammo is still made that fits that rifle. Black Powder arms you have to build the bullet yourself. I had a situation where I had a lawyer who definitely affirmed that an Act of Congress outranks any State or Local definitions of Firearms.

 

[briantllb]

Hi,
I'm a recently new member of this excellent forum living in the UK. I presently shoot reproduction Remington 1858 muzzle loading revolvers and through this developed a desire to own and possibly shoot an original example of these lovely old revolvers.
Original examples of these models are obviously more expensive here in the UK than in the US, but I recently acquired this Remington New Model Navy in useable condition and at an affordable cost. The Serial Number is 30262 and I wondered if anybody could advise what the significance of the 'MB' marking might be on the side of the trigger guard. I have stripped and inspected the condition of the barrel and internals and everything looks good enough to safely shoot with low black powder loads.

View attachment 355257
View attachment 355258
Thanks
Brian

Hi Brian,
I too am in the once United Kingdom and have an original Remington .44 New Model Army. It has very little wear and is in excellent fireable condition. I suspect it was one of the French Purchases, they bought 20000 for the Franco - Prussian War.
Sadly the French apparently liked them shiny and so polished them back to white removing the barrel address in the process.
It does not have that mark so I cannot say what it means, but it does have some additional markings under the grips I will post a couple of photographs of it and the stamps. I also have an original nickel plated 1849 Colt Pocket revolver made in 1855 with all matching numbers and with initials on the top of the backstrap it too is in fireable condition. It has some wear to the plating and the cylinder is a little loose until the trigger is pulled then it tightens up nicely. I bought mine from France pre the Brexit disaster

 

[briantllb]

All guns are firearms in the UK. All are covered under and by The Firearms Act 1968 as amended.
Some guns are less restricted than others. Air rifles with a muzzle energy of 12ft Lbs or less are age restricted. Air pistols with a muzzle energy of 6ft Lbs or less are also age restricted (over 18 to purchase). Antique Arms (flint lock or percussion or earlier) or guns that fire obsolete ammunition are exempt from licensing requirements if manufactured prior to 1939. The Home Office publishes a list of obsolete calibres. For example until recently a Colt Single Action Army in .41 Long Colt was exempt, but not now, .41 LC was removed from the list. .44/40 is not exempt but .44 Remington is exempt and on and on it goes. Longbows, compound bows etc. are age restricted. Crossbows of all types are age restricted and can even be bought mail order for delivery by post. Airguns cannot, neither can airsoft guns. Modern reproductions of all antique arms regardless of the method of ignition require a Firearms Certificate.

I own several antique firearms mainly pistols which I cannot and will not shoot. I also own three modern Crossbows and a Horse Bow. Hunting with any type of bow is illegal in the UK though it is very easy to purchase very lethal broadheads.
Shooting of any kind in the UK is well and truly tied up in sometimes very weird legislation.

 

[scooter748driver]

Welcome from the Fort Sumter forum! Very nice looking guns you have - thank you for sharing!

 

[briantllb]

Availability of fixed ammunition is the key. An 1873 Trapdoor is still a firearm because ammo is still made that fits that rifle. Black Powder arms you have to build the bullet yourself. I had a situation where I had a lawyer who definitely affirmed that an Act of Congress outranks any State or Local definitions of Firearms.

Availability of fixed ammunition AND or date of manufacture. A Bergman 1897 in 9mm Bergman would be potentially legal to own despite the availability of or ease of manufacture of its ammunition due to he historical rarity of the pistol. A .30 luger MAY also be legal to own in the UK despite .30 Mauser pistol ammunition being sort of occasionally available (7.62 x 25 Tokarev) which was also used in the Com Block PPSH SMG and its variants. I used to buy it from China by the container load along with .30 Mauser pistols and carbines and of course Tokarev pistols.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Availability of fixed ammunition AND or date of manufacture. A Bergman 1897 in 9mm Bergman would be potentially legal to own despite the availability of or ease of manufacture of its ammunition due to he historical rarity of the pistol. A .30 luger MAY also be legal to own in the UK despite .30 Mauser pistol ammunition being sort of occasionally available (7.62 x 25 Tokarev) which was also used in the Com Block PPSH SMG and its variants. I used to buy it from China by the container load along with .30 Mauser pistols and carbines and of course Tokarev pistols.

Great info! Thanks for the elucidation.