Questionable provences

[archieclement]

Do they add any value to gun, detract any from a gun? Was looking antique guns for sale and seen black powder frame frontier six with the following description.

"Manufactured 1894. Includes a handwritten February 10, 1919 dated letter of provenance stating, "This date given to V.A. Jamison 44-40 owned by T.S. Junger which was my cousin. 27 notches on bar to show as many deeds done with J. James & Gang," and is signed "Friends, F.M. Ross." The "27 notches on bar" referanaces the series of notches on the left side of the top strap. Also with a period photo of an unidentified man."

Am somewhat a James Buff....first Jesse died in 1882.... and not aware of any of the names having any connection to James/Youngers. This doesn't even seem a plausible provenence as the gun wasn't even in existence in same time period James/Younger gang was.......

 

[Drew]

I have General Lee's sidearm, if anyone wants to buy it.

 

[RedRover]

Supply=Demand.

 

[archieclement]

I can see a story like that on a period gun being cool......you'd know it's likely BS, likely never going to be conclusively proven true or false. But there would be a chance however remote it could be true...........but this revolver isn't even same period.........

 

[RedRover]

Even the chaps who might fake provenances on old stuff to puff the prices will freely and readily admit that there is the remotest of chances the provenance assigned is the correct one...

 

[Lanyard Puller]

From an internet search of James' mother.

"Even museums are not immune to being taken in on possible James guns.

Zerelda James (wife of Jesse) pistol

Unfortunately there is the possibility that hundreds of guns owned not by Jesse, but by his mother Zerelda Samuel (she had remarried after Jesse was born), were passed on long after Jesse's death.

Ever the shrewd marketer, Zerelda frequently passed on any number of revolvers, shotguns, and rifles with handwritten notes vouching them to be 'my son Jesse's gun'. Unlike her son, she lived a long a healthy life. Dying at age 86 in 1911, her obituary stated, 'considering the thrilling vicissitudes of her life, she was exceptionally well preserved and was in fairly good possession of all her faculties."

Indeed, she even passed on a number of guns manufactured even after Jesse's death with no doubt a straight face and a sly grin.

Perhaps her sons weren't the biggest outlaws."

Caveat Emptor, amigo.

 

[Nebraska Lawdog]

Buy the gun, not the story.

 

[redbob]

I've always taken provenances with a grain of salt, much like the claim that since this item was recovered at Gettysburg it is therefore worth much more money than other identical items.

 

[RedRover]

As to the value of the object, from years of reading the various editions of Flayderman's guide to antique American firearms, it strikes me that condition is what really matters unless the object is incredibly rare. The common gun, with a provenance, might be confused as something rare, a one-off if you will given its "unique history" etc., and sell for a premium.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I would be glad to sell someone a Smith and Wesson Model 3 American break top revolver, .44 caliber, barrel shortened, and marked "J James" on the bottom of the wood grips. I have owned, over the years, at least two other revolvers marked with that name. Jessie James must have owned guns the way Presidents of the US sign bills, where they will sometimes use a dozen pens in making a single signature on some document so they can pass out those pens to a dozen people, and tell each this this is the famous pen that was used to sign that famous document. Those stories of Missouri civil war guerillas having many Colt Navy revolvers tucked into their belts must be true, and Jessie carried many dozens of guns during his career.

 

[archieclement]

I've always taken provenances with a grain of salt, much like the claim that since this item was recovered at Gettysburg it is therefore worth much more money than other identical items.

It's particularly odd as the conventional logic to price, rarity, is turned on its head........the bigger the battle, the more numerous the relics, the less actually rare......

 

[RedRover]

It's particularly odd as the conventional logic to price, rarity, is turned on its head........the bigger the battle, the more numerous the relics, the less actually rare......

Its about the customer's imagination to a degree. If a pistol in only fair condition used in the battle of Palatka, Florida, is advertised for sale there will be very few people who will instantly connect their imagination to the object. The potential customer base for that provenance is narrow. If it has a "Gettysburg" provenance, a larger number of people will instantly imagine the object in connection with something of which they are familiar (even if just by watching movies). The potential customer base is broadened.

I have witnessed people shopping at antique shows assign a provenance to an object themselves, as in "this is like the ones used at Gettysburg..." The vendor nods in the affirmative. And I cannot tell how many times I've heard regarding period muskets or swords, "could this have been used by a Confederate?" To which the vendor might admit, "might have..." or "don't know" etc. The buyer's imagination already created a provenance to the object beyond any actual evidence; and the buyer might imagine more value to the object than the price of the object in itself.

Where some unethically fake provenances, by altering an object to permanently associate it with a name, or historical incident, or just producing "documentation" etc. it can be done in many ways depending on the potential customer and the actual value of the object. The assigned provenance does indeed become part of the "history" of the object, but really only when it is actually publicly documented, as when advertised for sale or recorded as accessioned by a museum.

Post and Courier: Collectors beware...

Reuters...fakes and plunderers...

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Jim Supica wrote a great article on how he evaluates provenance of items, and assigns letter grades to the quality of the proof, ranging from A+ down to F; F includes "amazing time travel guns" which are claimed to have been involved in some historic event which occurred BEFORE the gun was manufactured!
The article was first printed in a price guide some years ago, but you can read it on the Ohio Gun Collector's website.

 

[Missouri_8th_Infantry]

Do they add any value to gun, detract any from a gun? Was looking antique guns for sale and seen black powder frame frontier six with the following description.

"Manufactured 1894. Includes a handwritten February 10, 1919 dated letter of provenance stating, "This date given to V.A. Jamison 44-40 owned by T.S. Junger which was my cousin. 27 notches on bar to show as many deeds done with J. James & Gang," and is signed "Friends, F.M. Ross." The "27 notches on bar" referanaces the series of notches on the left side of the top strap. Also with a period photo of an unidentified man."

Am somewhat a James Buff....first Jesse died in 1882.... and not aware of any of the names having any connection to James/Youngers. This doesn't even seem a plausible provenence as the gun wasn't even in existence in same time period James/Younger gang was.......

I get what you mean about provenance. I am actively looking at Colt Revolvers from a well known auction house (Rock Island Arms). Two Colts got me all excited, only to be very let down due to shady "provenance".

The first is supposed to be carved by a "J.G.Ritter", the last name with two "TTs". Jeramiah G. Ritter was a war hero in his own right as served in many important battles for the Army of the Potomac (Manassas, Fredericksburg, Gettysburg etc.). However, on close inspection of the images, the carving says "J.G.Riller" with two "LLs", not two "TTs". Let's just say I'm not going to drop a couple of grand on the belief that he forgot to cross his Ts. The second is attributed to a Confederate soldier. The "proof" is a modern letter that was copied from a letter that supposedly was created in the 1950s by the son of the Confederate soldier in question. Not the original letter mind you or even a photocopy, but a hand typed letter. I mean, it could've been typed yesterday! I guess there are so many that want to believe so badly that they will buy the story blindly.

 

[scooter748driver]

I get what you mean about provenance. I am actively looking at Colt Revolvers from a well known auction house (Rock Island Arms). Two Colts got me all excited, only to be very let down due to shady "provenance".

The first is supposed to be carved by a "J.G.Ritter", the last name with two "TTs". Jeramiah G. Ritter was a war hero in his own right as served in many important battles for the Army of the Potomac (Manassas, Fredericksburg, Gettysburg etc.). However, on close inspection of the images, the carving says "J.G.Riller" with two "LLs", not two "TTs". Let's just say I'm not going to drop a couple of grand on the belief that he forgot to cross his Ts. The second is attributed to a Confederate soldier. The "proof" is a modern letter that was copied from a letter that supposedly was created in the 1950s by the son of the Confederate soldier in question. Not the original letter mind you or even a photocopy, but a hand typed letter. I mean, it could've been typed yesterday! I guess there are so many that want to believe so badly that they will buy the story blindly.

I was curious so looked up the auction you refer to for the "J.G.Ritter" Colt. I agree that the picture seems to show "Riller." Also, to my eyes, it looks like the "iller" are different that the J.G. R, as if it was added at some later time. Not saying that's the case but sufficient for me to have doubts about the claim in the description. Of course the estimated price isn't terrible for what it is, an 1861 Colt Navy.

 

[cannonjockey]

Rock Island Auction is notorious for this kind of activity, i.e., over-promoting a firearm with little or no real provenance to jack up the realized prices and therefore their commissions.

Here's a prime example from an auction held last September. Click on the link to see a really nice-looking gun accompanied by a whole lot of horse manure.

Flintlock attributed to Andrew Jackson

It's an early 19th-century flintlock rifle made by a known gunsmith. It's a gorgeous firearm with lots of engraved German silver embellishments and is in immaculate condition. On the buttstock is an inletted plate with the phrase "Old Hickory". Of course, that was and still is a well-known nickname for the hero of the Battle of New Orleans---President Andrew Jackson.

So Rock Island promotes this rifle as having belonged to Jackson with no proof or provenance whatsoever other than the engraved nickname. They use the catch-all non-committal term: "attributed to". They show beautiful pictures of the gun along with photos of original paintings of Jackson and appropriate period items including an officer's sword. They have a full page describing Jackson's exploits plus include a newspaper ad from the particular high-end gunsmith who made the rifle. They even include a Youtube video they did promoting this gun.

However, there are no documents at all actually connecting this gun to Jackson, no estate inventories, bills of sale, personal engraved names on the gun, or period signed documents--just the "old Hickory" engraving on the buttstock.

The gun could have easily been ordered by some wealthy period admirer of Jackson. The plate on the cheekpiece could have been added later by an enterprising talented faker. Anyway, Rock Island--through hyperbole and innuendo takes an exceptionally nice well preserved fancy flintlock worth maybe $25 or $30k and assigns it a $75k to $120k min/max auction estimate. Then two or more fools with more money than good sense run the final price up to $172,000.

I can only assume that many of Rock Island's appraisers are former used car salesmen or possibly come from a long line of traveling snake oil sellers.

Cheers

 

[RedRover]

I can only assume that many of Rock Island's appraisers are former used car salesmen or possibly come from a long line of traveling snake oil sellers.

Cheers

If one realizes they got hooked they either swallow it, or try to get their money back by passing along the weak provenance, or perhaps even adding to it... I used to work in a small museum, and frequently folks would try to sell such things to the museum, (assuming there was a large bank account!). Usually did not happen, but when the collectors were on the board of directors they would argue incessantly over the immense "historical" value of the stuff/provenance, for years even.

 

[History hoarder63]

Do they add any value to gun, detract any from a gun? Was looking antique guns for sale and seen black powder frame frontier six with the following description.

"Manufactured 1894. Includes a handwritten February 10, 1919 dated letter of provenance stating, "This date given to V.A. Jamison 44-40 owned by T.S. Junger which was my cousin. 27 notches on bar to show as many deeds done with J. James & Gang," and is signed "Friends, F.M. Ross." The "27 notches on bar" referanaces the series of notches on the left side of the top strap. Also with a period photo of an unidentified man."

Am somewhat a James Buff....first Jesse died in 1882.... and not aware of any of the names having any connection to James/Youngers. This doesn't even seem a plausible provenence as the gun wasn't even in existence in same time period James/Younger gang was.......

I definitely buy and sell at a premium if an artifact has provenance I am confident in. I prioritize period tags or ink/pencil notations on the artifact. If I know where a relic was dug, I always add a bit when I buy. Dug artifacts with no provenance are never something I pay a premium for. Now we all know there are relics with fake provenance out there and this is where experience comes in handy. A few months back a pretty well known artifact "enhancer" had a canister plate for sale that was painted "Gettysburg" and he claimed it was a battlefield pick up from the old Danner museum or some such. Looking at the plate it was obvious it was a real dug canister plate but there was no way on earth this thing was an old battlefield pick up. It was covered in thick rust and looked like it had been dug within the last 20 years. Actually the patina of the iron looked more like a Central Virginia dug piece than a Gettysburg one.

Good provenance can also be a detriment in rare cases. A few years ago I had the chance to buy but passed on a dug US plate at a pretty decent price. On the back of the plate was a notation in black Sharpie pen something along the lines of "found on hill behind *** NY regiment monument June ** 1985". No basic location was on the plate but it took about 30 seconds to figure out that the monument referenced was at Gettysburg, well within the National Park boundary. Given the date of the find it makes that plate illegal to own since it was removed from existing National Park property. While it was a great relic and I did not doubt the provenance, there was no way I was going to buy that piece. While the odds were it would never cause me trouble, I personally know someone who had their ENTIRE collection seized because they had a single artifact in it from a protected Federal site and the wrong person found out.

 

[gjpratt]

I bought a well worn Confederate longarm from a reputable dealer many years ago. It had a somewhat common name carved in the stock. The dealer I bought it from priced it for its extrinsic value alone because he explained there was no way to link the gun or military service to the carved. I subsequently traded the gun and several weeks later it turned up on another dealer's table at a show being sold at 3X what I paid as an identified firearm, complete with a stack of records showing the war record of a soldier who had the same name. When I played dumb and asked about the provenance -- repeatedly -- he finally said it was the only person with that name who served in the CSA and from the state where the gun was manufactured. It was an invaluable lesson that for once did not cost me anything.

 

[History hoarder63]

I definitely buy and sell at a premium if an artifact has provenance I am confident in. I prioritize period tags or ink/pencil notations on the artifact. If I know where a relic was dug, I always add a bit when I buy. Dug artifacts with no provenance are never something I pay a premium for. Now we all know there are relics with fake provenance out there and this is where experience comes in handy. A few months back a pretty well known artifact "enhancer" had a canister plate for sale that was painted "Gettysburg" and he claimed it was a battlefield pick up from the old Danner museum or some such. Looking at the plate it was obvious it was a real dug canister plate but there was no way on earth this thing was an old battlefield pick up. It was covered in thick rust and looked like it had been dug within the last 20 years. Actually the patina of the iron looked more like a Central Virginia dug piece than a Gettysburg one.

Good provenance can also be a detriment in rare cases. A few years ago I had the chance to buy but passed on a dug US plate at a pretty decent price. On the back of the plate was a notation in black Sharpie pen something along the lines of "found on hill behind *** NY regiment monument June ** 1985". No basic location was on the plate but it took about 30 seconds to figure out that the monument referenced was at Gettysburg, well within the National Park boundary. Given the date of the find it makes that plate illegal to own since it was removed from existing National Park property. While it was a great relic and I did not doubt the provenance, there was no way I was going to buy that piece. While the odds were it would never cause me trouble, I personally know someone who had their ENTIRE collection seized because they had a single artifact in it from a protected Federal site and the wrong person found out.

Other factors on valuing provenance markings on relics. Any marking that can be firmly attributed to any of the early museums or collections (e.g Danner, Lookout Mountain Museum) bring a significant premium. If it is an early Gettysburg museum, the premium could be 1000%. If a dug relic has any markings that can be firmly attributed to any of the pioneer relic hunters (e.g. Stan Phillips, Will Gavin) those will sell at a premium. Any relic that is pictured in a reference book or North South Trader will also have a small premium attached to it usually.