Question - maximum elevation for an M1857 Napoleon?

The gun has a solid trail which limits elevation to 5 degrees. The only way to raise the elevation is to dig a hole for the trail and lower the end into it, but this is hardly a scientific method of aiming.
One area of confusion is that 5 degrees was considered the elevation for maximum "effective" range of the 3" Ordnance Rifle and 10 lb Parrott, even though they could get greater range for their rifled projectiles at higher elevations.
 
5 degrees would not be effective range, which was normally reckoned to by at about 2 degrees. It is a question of how wide the dangerous space is. The angle of fall at range is approximately the angle of elevation. Given that an average man of the time is ca. 5 ft 8 (1.7 m) tall, the dangerous space is approximately:

height of target/tangent(90 degrees - angle of elevation)

At 2 degrees elevation, the dangerous space for a 12 pdr is about 54 yards, at so targets ca. 820 to 875 yards distant would be hit. At 5 degrees it is 21.5 yds and targets ca. 1,660 to 1,680 yards distant would be hit.

As elevations increase, the dangerous space gets smaller and smaller, until it is almost impossible to hit ought. One needs to observe splash and bring the guns on, which is pretty impossible against, say, moving infantry. For counterbattery, one needs to be able to observe splashes, and hope the enemy battery doesn't change position.

Huh, I've calculated the dangerous spaces before.
 
In the ordnance manual, the tables show 5 degrees as the max for smooth bores. 3" ordnance rifle 8 degrees. a 10-lb parrot 35 degrees.
Yep. To follow up, the 5 degrees in the tables is the "maximum" for the 12 lb. smoothbore solid shot, while they show a "maximum" for shell/case at a lower elevation. For the rifles, Gibbon refers to the table ranges at elevations above 5 degrees as the "extremes". How actually "effective" firing was at the "maximum effective" is a different question (and also gets into other impacts on the ability to execute direct fire).
 
So rifled pieces could be elevated higher?
Keep in mind that the tables used at the time were to some extent "all over the place", but there are tables showing the 3" Ordnance Rifle with a range for case at elevations up to 16 and the 10 lb Parrott at elevations up to 20 or even 35. To a large extent it's "no harm no foul". In an era of direct fire and black powder, a battery commander firing at those ranges would have done just as well by having his crew use blindfolds - entirely aside from what would happen to the projectile and its accuracy as it traversed those distances.
 
The information I used is from Robert's Hand Book of Artillery. On a side tangent, going through the range chapter most of the smooth bore artillery, outside of columbiads and mortars, are caped at 5 degrees. The tables didn't include rocket artillery though.
 
Thank you all for the answers!
So to directly respond to my friend: the M1857 Napoleon could be elevated above 5°, but this would require adjustments to the trail and wouldn't be a very practical use of the piece in any case.
I think the bottom line is that he would have been assessed a fine by Hunt for throwing away valuable and costly Government ordnance. :D
 
The gun has a solid trail which limits elevation to 5 degrees. The only way to raise the elevation is to dig a hole for the trail and lower the end into it, but this is hardly a scientific method of aiming.
While I have yet to find an example of this being done in the Civil War, I know it was done at least once in Korea by the 11th Marines.
 
The gun has a solid trail which limits elevation to 5 degrees. The only way to raise the elevation is to dig a hole for the trail and lower the end into it, but this is hardly a scientific method of aiming.

I would imagine that the hole method for gaining elevation might wreak havoc on the carriage, due to no recoil mechanisms. I would like to see some of your sources.
 
While I have yet to find an example of this being done in the Civil War, I know it was done at least once in Korea by the 11th Marines.
There was a brief discussion not long ago about elevation and anti-aircaft fire against Union observation balloons. See url:

 
I would imagine that the hole method for gaining elevation might wreak havoc on the carriage, due to no recoil mechanisms. I would like to see some of your sources.
That´s in either ¨A Cannoneer Under Stonewall Jackson,¨ ¨Reminiscences of Soldier Life in the Civil War,¨ or ¨The Story of Our Battery.¨ I don´t have them in front of me at the moment so that´s a guess. Actually, black powder is such an inefficient propellent that I could see that working without damaging the carriage. They´re pretty study, after all, made to go on and off road. IIRC, the hole they dug for the trail wasn´t but a few inches deep, so we´re not talking about putting one end of the trail in a foxhole deep pit.
 
That´s in either ¨A Cannoneer Under Stonewall Jackson,¨ ¨Reminiscences of Soldier Life in the Civil War,¨ or ¨The Story of Our Battery.¨ I don´t have them in front of me at the moment so that´s a guess. Actually, black powder is such an inefficient propellent that I could see that working without damaging the carriage. They´re pretty study, after all, made to go on and off road. IIRC, the hole they dug for the trail wasn´t but a few inches deep, so we´re not talking about putting one end of the trail in a foxhole deep pit.
Ok, thank you for being willing to share them.
 
IMG_1371.jpeg

Lookout Mountain taken from Missionary Ridge. The Summertown Road is about half way between the point & the lower left were the ridge meets the edge of the image.

The gunners from Fort Negley in Nashville were transferred to Moccasin Point across the Tennessee River from Lookout Mountain. In order to bring fire onto CSA batteries positioned on the north face of the ridge, the trails were set in holes.

We are fortunate to have the testimony of both the A of the Cumberland & A of TN signalists in charge of Moccasin Point & Lookout signal stations.

The commander of the Moccasin Bend battery received orders directly from Thomas' HQ in Chattanooga. Lookout Station both signaled directly to Bragg's little White House HQ atop Missionary Ridge & repeated signals to & from Lookout Valley.

After the Moccasin Bend battery of 20 pound Parrott's became operational, they began scouring the CSA batteries off the face of the ridge. As Porter Alexander had found out earlier, firing cannon from 1,000 feet above the target was farcical. (Cumberlanders leapt out of their trenches to place bets on the clearly visible falling rounds. Huge gales of laughter echoed up & down the valley followed especially errant impacts. Hardly the respect the A of NV was accustomed to.)

IMG_1372.jpeg

Moccasin Bend, on the Tennessee River is where it sweeps along northern (camera right) end of the ridge. Captain Eastman's signal station was at the summit of the mountain ( camera left.) Thos is the view the signalists at Bragg's HQ station would have had.

When the signal was received to open fire, the CSA signalists looked on as one battery after another up trails & scurried for safety. From their treehouse perch, it was quite a spectacle. Captain Eastman composed a report & the flag man raised Bragg's HQ station. One of the signalists expressed anxiety, "Wouldn't the Cumberlander red legs take aim at them?" A hearty laugh at such an absurdity was cut short when a Parrot case shot sent leaves & branches showering down on their heads.

When it became clear that Moccasin Point was going to snipe at them every time they waved flag or torch, hiding became the order of the day. From a couple of boards set on the crock of a tree trunk, a sight line was pruned through treetops aimed at the little white house.

When Hooker began his assault, an order from Thomas was flagged to Moccasin Bend. A CSA column had been observed ascending the Summertown Road. Following presighted survey points, every battery that could bear fired on the target. The Bend gunners called for fuzes to be cut at 22 seconds. The fire was indirect. Their fall of shot was controlled from A of the C HQ station.

As Hooker's men trudged up the face of Lookout Mountain, his HQ signalists controlled the battery, ordering it to cease fire as they advanced into the field of fire, e.g.

After the retreat of the A of TN, the Negley red legs returned to the legalized prostitution, fresh oysters, ice cream parlors & circus performances in Nashville. Those boys had quite some war stories. Today, you can take a selfie next to a repro 30 pound Parrott from whence they welcomed Hood to Nashville.

I have a couple of photos of batteries of howitzers with their trails dug in. One of them is eight howitzers with handles from the A of the Potomac.

My impression is that digging in the trails to increase elevation was not an exotic expedient. The wheels must have jumped right off the ground.

The better mouse trap was the Waird carriage. It allowed both the smoothbore & rifled Wierd cannon to elevate to 35 degrees.

Note: CSA Captain Eastman's signals were routinely intercepted by an A of the C station of observation. The "contrabands" as intercepts were called, provide an insight into real time CSA decision making. For example, Sherman crossed the Tennessee in full knowledge that Bragg had fallen for Grant's demonstration on Raccoon Mountain. Attention was focused on the left. There was no inkling of Sherman's crossing on the right.

From atop Missionary Ridge, Gen Granger signaled directly to Thomas on Orchard Knob, send a battery, we are winning! Charles Dana, a party to Thomas' signal traffic, was able to report to Lincoln in what amounted to real time. The hand writing of the clerk who recorded it in Washington reflects the excitement of Dana's narrative. Many Civil War folks are very surprised to learn how battles were actually conducted.
 
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The gunners from Fort Negley in Nashville were transferred to Moccasin Point across the Tennessee River from Lookout Mountain. In order to bring fire onto CSA batteries positioned on the north face of the ridge, the trails were set in holes.

We are fortunate to have the testimony of both the A of the Cumberland & A of TN signalists in charge of Moccasin Point & Lookout slogan stations.

The commander of the Moccasin Bend battery received orders directly from Thomas' HQ in Chattanooga. Lookout Station both signaled directly to Bragg's little White House HQ atop Missionary Ridge & repeated signals to & from Lookout Valley.

After the Moccasins n Bend battery of 20 pound Parrott's became operational, they began scouting the CSA batteries off the face of the ridge. As Porter Alexander had found out earlier, firing cannon from 1,000 feet above the target was farcical. (Cumberlanders leapt out of their trenches to place bets on the clearly visible falling rounds. Huge gales of laughter echoed up & down the valley followed especially errant impacts. Hardly the respect the A of NV was accustomed to.)

When the signal was received to open fire, the CSA signalists looked on as one battery after another up trails & scurried for safety. From their treehouse perch, it was quite a spectacle. Captain Eastman composed a report & the flag man raised Bragg's HQ station. One of the signalists expressed anxiety, "Wouldn't the Cumberlander red legs take aim at them?" A hearty laugh at such an absurdity was cut short when a Parrot case shot sent leaves & branches showering down on their heads.

When it became clear that Moccasin Point was going to snipe at them every time they waved flag or torch, hiding became the order of the day. From a couple of boards set on the crock of a tree trunk, a sight line was pruned through treetops aimed at the little white house.

When Hooker began his assault, an order from Thomas was flagged to Moccasin Bend. A CSA column had been observed ascending the Summertown Road. Following presighted survey points, every battery that could bear fired on the target. The Bend gunners called for fuzes to be cut at 22 seconds. The fire was indirect. Their fall of shot was controlled from A of the C HQ station.

As Hooker's men trudged up the face of Lookout Mountain, his HQ signalists controlled the battery, ordering it to cease fire as they advanced into the field of fire, e.g.

After the retreat of the A of TN, the Negley red legs returned to the legalized prostitution, fresh oysters, ice cream parlors & circus performances in Nashville. Those boys had quite some war stories. Today, you can take a selfie next to a repro 30 pound Parrott from whence they welcomed Hood to Nashville.

I have a couple of photos of batteries of howitzers with their trails dug in. One of them is eight howitzers with handles from the A of the Potomac.

My impression is that digging in the trails to increase elevation was not an exotic expedient. The wheels must have jumped right off the ground.

The better mouse trap was the Wierd carriage. It allowed both the smoothbore & rifled Wierd cannon to elevate to 35 degrees.

Note: CSA Captain Eastman's signals were routinely intercepted by an A of the C station of observation. The "contrabands" as intercepts were called, provide an insight into real time CSA decision making. For example, Sherman crossed the Tennessee in full knowledge that Bragg had fallen for Grant's demonstration on Raccoon Mountain. Attention was focused on the left. There was no inkling of Sherman's crossing on the right.

From atop Missionary Ridge, Gen Granger signaled directly to Thomas on Orchard Knob, send a battery, we are winning! Charles Dana, a party to Thomas' signal traffic, was able to report to Lincoln in what amounted to real time. The hand writing of the clerk who recorded it in Washington reflects the excitement of Dana's narrative. Many Civil War folks are very surprised to learn how battles were actually conducted.
My impression is that digging in the trails to increase elevation was not an exotic expedient. The wheels must have jumped right off the ground.
Of course, one potential issue is increased stress on the carriage from an impeded/redirected recoil. Wiard in his Wiard's System of Field Artillery, As Improved blasted the regulation carriage used for the 3" Ordnance Rifle and the 10 lb Parrott because of the impact of recoil causing an unacceptable rate of broken axles, etc. He pointed out the basic fact that recoil in the usual posture involved the wheels "slipping" back as opposed to rolling. One might refer to it as a modified "jumping" back. As you suggest, digging in the trail would likely exaggerate this effect. In addition, it would appear to put increased stress on the trail. It was likely a bad "cost-benefit" result. That leads us to:

The better mouse trap was the Wierd carriage. It allowed both the smoothbore & rifled Wierd cannon to elevate to 35 degrees.

In addition, Wiard's unique wheel/axle construction was intended to alleviate the problems he referred to with the regulation carriage.
 

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