Pulling a few logistics threads

[JohnG0609]

In Grierson's AAR he reported the capture of a 64 pounder just southwest of Gallatin (4.27.63):

Surby recalled that it was a 32 pounder:

Does anyone have any insights or more information on reconciling this discrepancy? He also captured much ammo (small arms and artillery) and provisions in Hazlehurst the day before (04.26.63)

Also, on 05.03.63 Pemberton telegraphed Col Stockton, head of the CSA arsenal in Jackson (not DMEL) that an ordnance train form Edwards Depot had been captured. I have not run across any accounts of this capture. Anyone have more information?

My working theory is that Grierson's capture of the ammo at Hazlehurst and the cannon at Gallatin may be the one referred to in this dispatch from Pemberton. I base this chiefly on the notion that Mayo was Chief of Ordnance for DMEL and Stockton for CSA Depot in Jackson. I'm assuming that the captured ammo/cannon was a supply from CSA or else he would have messaged Mayo vice Stockton. Also that a 64 pounder would have come from CSA and that DMEL had 32 pounders already in the inventory but were employed elsewhere in the DMEL.

Please feel free to add more context and/or correct my assumptions.

 

[UCVRelics]

Interesting reports as there was no 64lb and the parrott would have had to have been a 30lb parrott as there was no 32lber. Lets see if @Championhilz has any insight on this.

 

[tony_gunter]

In Grierson's AAR he reported the capture of a 64 pounder just southwest of Gallatin (4.27.63):
View attachment 538304

Surby recalled that it was a 32 pounder:
View attachment 538305

Does anyone have any insights or more information on reconciling this discrepancy? He also captured much ammo (small arms and artillery) and provisions in Hazlehurst the day before (04.26.63)

Also, on 05.03.63 Pemberton telegraphed Col Stockton, head of the CSA arsenal in Jackson (not DMEL) that an ordnance train form Edwards Depot had been captured. I have not run across any accounts of this capture. Anyone have more information?

View attachment 538306


My working theory is that Grierson's capture of the ammo at Hazlehurst and the cannon at Gallatin may be the one referred to in this dispatch from Pemberton. I base this chiefly on the notion that Mayo was Chief of Ordnance for DMEL and Stockton for CSA Depot in Jackson. I'm assuming that the captured ammo/cannon was a supply from CSA or else he would have messaged Mayo vice Stockton. Also that a 64 pounder would have come from CSA and that DMEL had 32 pounders already in the inventory but were employed elsewhere in the DMEL.

Please feel free to add more context and/or correct my assumptions.

An ordnance train from Edwards wouldn't travel toward Hazelhurst or Gallatin.

Pemberton directed Tilghman to Bowen directly from Edwards instead of having them ride to Vicksburg first, and directed them to move unencumbered by baggage. Could this have been Tilghman's ammunition train following him south?

WRT Mayo and Stockton, Pemberton moved his HQ to Vicksburg on the 2nd right? It doesn't appear Mayo moved with him, tho. Could the message have gone to Stockton simply as a matter of him being in charge of manufacture in Jackson? IIRC, around the same time Stockton was ordered to remove his equipment to Alabama. Maybe this was Pemberton simply ordering everything that had been produced so far into Vicksburg.

 

[RedRover]

There is no discrepancy between Grierson's official report and Surby's statements. The 64 pounder reported by Grierson was the same as the 32 pounder mentioned by Surby. Old 32 pounders, rifled, fired a 64 pound James shot instead of the old round shot (32 lbs.), so were sometimes referred to as 64 pounders.

From 1862's attack on Fort Pulaski:

 

[JohnG0609]

There is no discrepancy between Grierson's official report and Surby's statements. The 64 pounder reported by Grierson was the same as the 32 pounder mentioned by Surby. Old 32 pounders, rifled, fired a 64 pound James shot instead of the old round shot (32 lbs.), so were sometimes referred to as 64 pounders.

From 1862's attack on Fort Pulaski:

View attachment 538435

View attachment 538432

View attachment 538433
View attachment 538434

View attachment 538437


View attachment 538441

Thank you for this! Saved me bumbling around trying to find the answer. Thank you for the dispatch from Hurlburt. Adds more thread to pull!

 

[RedRover]

Thank you for this! Saved me bumbling around trying to find the answer. Thank you for the dispatch from Hurlburt. Adds more thread to pull!

James rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JohnG0609]

An ordnance train from Edwards wouldn't travel toward Hazelhurst or Gallatin.

Pemberton directed Tilghman to Bowen directly from Edwards instead of having them ride to Vicksburg first, and directed them to move unencumbered by baggage. Could this have been Tilghman's ammunition train following him south?

WRT Mayo and Stockton, Pemberton moved his HQ to Vicksburg on the 2nd right? It doesn't appear Mayo moved with him, tho. Could the message have gone to Stockton simply as a matter of him being in charge of manufacture in Jackson? IIRC, around the same time Stockton was ordered to remove his equipment to Alabama. Maybe this was Pemberton simply ordering everything that had been produced so far into Vicksburg.

Tony, I wonder if you are making the same assumption I did. Pemberton only says "the ammunition" and not "ordnance train." And I recognize there's a lot of white space between "ammunition from Edwards" and "ammunition train" in Hazlehurst. But Hazlehurst was a logistics node with an almost direct road to Grand Gulf and I'm not aware of any account of an ordnance train capture south of Edwards Depot. I'm not inclined to think it could have been Tilghman's as he had been moving rapidly on railroads in response to Grierson's raid.

The dispatch to Stockton seemed oddly out of place and didn't seem to relate to any operations but rather a strategic one as Stockton operated outside the chain of command for DMEL.

If my timeline is correct Pemberton moved on the 30th, was back up on the wires on the 1st, and HQ moved on the 5th, leaving some DMEL S-staff functions in Jackson, including Ordnance (Mayo).

Looking forward to hearing more from you! John

 

[JohnG0609]

James rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you! For my own edification, a "Parrott" just refers to the banding at the breech? So any model would be a "Parrott" if it had been banded?

 

[Stryker65]

There is no discrepancy between Grierson's official report and Surby's statements. The 64 pounder reported by Grierson was the same as the 32 pounder mentioned by Surby. Old 32 pounders, rifled, fired a 64 pound James shot instead of the old round shot (32 lbs.), so were sometimes referred to as 64 pounders.

From 1862's attack on Fort Pulaski:

View attachment 538435

View attachment 538432

View attachment 538433
View attachment 538434

Unrelated to this thread, but where'd you find this information? I'm currently working on a study of the Fort Pulaski bombardments, and I surprisingly haven't found this resource.

 

[tony_gunter]

Tony, I wonder if you are making the same assumption I did. Pemberton only says "the ammunition" and not "ordnance train." And I recognize there's a lot of white space between "ammunition from Edwards" and "ammunition train" in Hazlehurst. But Hazlehurst was a logistics node with an almost direct road to Grand Gulf and I'm not aware of any account of an ordnance train capture south of Edwards Depot. I'm not inclined to think it could have been Tilghman's as he had been moving rapidly on railroads in response to Grierson's raid.

The dispatch to Stockton seemed oddly out of place and didn't seem to relate to any operations but rather a strategic one as Stockton operated outside the chain of command for DMEL.

If my timeline is correct Pemberton moved on the 30th, was back up on the wires on the 1st, and HQ moved on the 5th, leaving some DMEL S-staff functions in Jackson, including Ordnance (Mayo).View attachment 538525
Looking forward to hearing more from you! John

The thing that doesn't ring true about this is:

If you have ammunition in Edwards 45 miles from Grand Gulf, why would you load it on a train, have it shipped to Hazelhurst, and unloaded from a train … just so you can be 45 miles from Grand Gulf?

 

[RedRover]

Unrelated to this thread, but where'd you find this information? I'm currently working on a study of the Fort Pulaski bombardments, and I surprisingly haven't found this resource.

From Mr. Holley's treatise on ordnance, from 1865:

A Treatise on Ordnance and Armor

www.google.com

Gillmore's official report of the reduction of Fort Pulaski...

Catalog Record: Official report to the United States Engineer Department, of the siege and reduction of Fort Pulaski, Georgia, February, March, and April, 1862

And for comparison, Gillmore's examination of artillery in operations against the Confederate defenses of Charleston Harbor, etc.

Catalog Record: Engineer and artillery operations against the defences of Charleston harbor in 1863: comprising the descent upon Morris Island, the demolition of Fort Sumter, the reduction of forts Wagner and Gregg. With observations on heavy ordnanc

 

[JohnG0609]

The thing that doesn't ring true about this is:

If you have ammunition in Edwards 45 miles from Grand Gulf, why would you load it on a train, have it shipped to Hazelhurst, and unloaded from a train … just so you can be 45 miles from Grand Gulf?

I'm tracking with you 100%, but it's the only theory that seems plausible... so far. I'm just stuck on the dispatch to Stockton. If it had been a brigade, division, district, or department train I would think it would be reported up from that echelon through channels. I'm inferring from the vagueness of Pemberton's dispatch that Stockton would know what "ammunition from Edwards" meant and that the ammunition was under his purview, not yet turned over to Mayo. The sketchiness of the railroads and Pemberton's near schizophrenic orders may add context. Also, it's not certain that the ammunition and provisions at Hazelhurst and the 32 pounder capture are related. Not sure if its possible to resolve this outside a trip to DC and the NARA for QM records.

 

[Stryker65]

I'm tracking with you 100%, but it's the only theory that seems plausible... so far. I'm just stuck on the dispatch to Stockton. If it had been a brigade, division, district, or department train I would think it would be reported up from that echelon through channels. I'm inferring from the vagueness of Pemberton's dispatch that Stockton would know what "ammunition from Edwards" meant and that the ammunition was under his purview, not yet turned over to Mayo. The sketchiness of the railroads and Pemberton's near schizophrenic orders may add context. Also, it's not certain that the ammunition and provisions at Hazelhurst and the 32 pounder capture are related. Not sure if its possible to resolve this outside a trip to DC and the NARA for QM records.

Perhaps it was a wagon train?

 

[RedRover]

Perhaps it was a wagon train?

Indeed. Some examples of ammunition trains...

 

[JohnG0609]

Perhaps it was a wagon train?

Perhaps it was. I'm just unable to validate that assumption.

 

[alan polk]

In Grierson's AAR he reported the capture of a 64 pounder just southwest of Gallatin (4.27.63):
View attachment 538304

Surby recalled that it was a 32 pounder:
View attachment 538305

Does anyone have any insights or more information on reconciling this discrepancy? He also captured much ammo (small arms and artillery) and provisions in Hazlehurst the day before (04.26.63)

Also, on 05.03.63 Pemberton telegraphed Col Stockton, head of the CSA arsenal in Jackson (not DMEL) that an ordnance train form Edwards Depot had been captured. I have not run across any accounts of this capture. Anyone have more information?

View attachment 538306


My working theory is that Grierson's capture of the ammo at Hazlehurst and the cannon at Gallatin may be the one referred to in this dispatch from Pemberton. I base this chiefly on the notion that Mayo was Chief of Ordnance for DMEL and Stockton for CSA Depot in Jackson. I'm assuming that the captured ammo/cannon was a supply from CSA or else he would have messaged Mayo vice Stockton. Also that a 64 pounder would have come from CSA and that DMEL had 32 pounders already in the inventory but were employed elsewhere in the DMEL.

Please feel free to add more context and/or correct my assumptions.

Welcome to CWT, @JohnG0609. It's nice to see a fellow Mississippian on board — and a local at that!

I like your theory. I too have never come across any other accounts that corroborate captured ammo moving from Edwards toward Port Gibson. Like @tony_gunter, I always assumed the incident referenced by Pemberton occurred in connection to Tilghman and Loring's movement on the Jackson Road on May 2.

Also, I know that after Port Gibson, Pemberton thought Bowen, Loring, and Tilghman might retreat to Rocky Springs rather than across Hankinson's Ferry. I don't think Pemberton learned the whole truth until the afternoon of May 3, so it is possible that Pemberton ordered additional ammunition from Edwards to Rocky Springs as late as May 3 to support them at Rocky Springs. But again, one would think that the Yankees would have reported capturing enemy ammunition on the road to Rocky Springs.

It also could be that the report was simply erroneously reported to Pemberton and he passed it along to Stockton, especially considering all the panic and confusion.

However, as is stated in your post, that 64 pounder was intended to be placed in the works at Grand Gulf and it was captured on the road to Port Gibson. Whether or not the ammunition captured on April 26 in Hazlehurst is connected is unclear — as you stated.

One of the difficulties—to me at least—is that these things occurred a week before Pemberton's May 3 dispatch to Stockton. Pemberton's May 3 message to Stockton seems to have a sense of immediacy to it— as if it belonged with all the other messages being sent and received and that referenced events of May 1-3 instead of events of a week prior. But I suppose it is possible that Pemberton had just found out about it and (as you alluded to) Stockton was uniquely situated to understand precisely what Pemberton was referencing.

Another one of the problems I have with trying to square all this is why ammunition would be sent from Edwards to Hazlehurst. This seems the biggest issue. If it indeed happened, it would have occurred before April 26. So, it might be worth going through the Confederate correspondences in the ORs for the month of April and see if there is some mention of this.

Is it possible that in April there were 64 (32-pounders) at Vicksburg or Fort Pemberton which had surplus ammunition? Maybe that ammunition was being sent from Vicksburg to Edwards and then somehow to Hazlehurst to await the 64 (32-pounder's) arrival? I can't think of any other reason for ammo to leave Edwards and move south.

I do know that there had been a company or two of Cockrell's brigade that had remained somewhere near Grenada while the rest were at Grand Gulf. These guys were eventually called up and shipped from Grenada to Hazlehurst/Gallatin where they unloaded from trains and marched directly to Grand Gulf (probably the same road as the 64-pounder). But for the life of me I can't find that account. I was trying to see if maybe they had left Hazlehurst in late April and that maybe ammunition had been sent from Edwards to Hazlehurst for them. But even that seems a stretch.

But I do hope you continue to try and solve it. It is certainly intriguing and worth looking into.

 

[tony_gunter]

Welcome to CWT, @JohnG0609. It's nice to see a fellow Mississippian on board — and a local at that!

I like your theory. I too have never come across any other accounts that corroborate captured ammo moving from Edwards toward Port Gibson. Like @tony_gunter, I always assumed the incident referenced by Pemberton occurred in connection to Tilghman and Loring's movement on the Jackson Road on May 2.

Also, I know that after Port Gibson, Pemberton thought Bowen, Loring, and Tilghman might retreat to Rocky Springs rather than across Hankinson's Ferry. I don't think Pemberton learned the whole truth until the afternoon of May 3, so it is possible that Pemberton ordered additional ammunition from Edwards to Rocky Springs as late as May 3 to support them at Rocky Springs. But again, one would think that the Yankees would have reported capturing enemy ammunition on the road to Rocky Springs.

It also could be that the report was simply erroneously reported to Pemberton and he passed it along to Stockton, especially considering all the panic and confusion.

However, as is stated in your post, that 64 pounder was intended to be placed in the works at Grand Gulf and it was captured on the road to Port Gibson. Whether or not the ammunition captured on April 26 in Hazlehurst is connected is unclear — as you stated.

One of the difficulties—to me at least—is that these things occurred a week before Pemberton's May 3 dispatch to Stockton. Pemberton's May 3 message to Stockton seems to have a sense of immediacy to it— as if it belonged with all the other messages being sent and received and that referenced events of May 1-3 instead of events of a week prior. But I suppose it is possible that Pemberton had just found out about it and (as you alluded to) Stockton was uniquely situated to understand precisely what Pemberton was referencing.

Another one of the problems I have with trying to square all this is why ammunition would be sent from Edwards to Hazlehurst. This seems the biggest issue. If it indeed happened, it would have occurred before April 26. So, it might be worth going through the Confederate correspondences in the ORs for the month of April and see if there is some mention of this.

Is it possible that in April there were 64 (32-pounders) at Vicksburg or Fort Pemberton which had surplus ammunition? Maybe that ammunition was being sent from Vicksburg to Edwards and then somehow to Hazlehurst to await the 64 (32-pounder's) arrival? I can't think of any other reason for ammo to leave Edwards and move south.

I do know that there had been a company or two of Cockrell's brigade that had remained somewhere near Grenada while the rest were at Grand Gulf. These guys were eventually called up and shipped from Grenada to Hazlehurst/Gallatin where they unloaded from trains and marched directly to Grand Gulf (probably the same road as the 64-pounder). But for the life of me I can't find that account. I was trying to see if maybe they had left Hazlehurst in late April and that maybe ammunition had been sent from Edwards to Hazlehurst for them. But even that seems a stretch.

But I do hope you continue to try and solve it. It is certainly intriguing and worth looking into.

I dug around in the archives a little to see if Pemberton's orders sent and received was online and didn't see it. I found Pemberton's log book for South Carolina … the handwriting was immaculate.

Hopefully the one for Mississippi is on the stacks and he brought the clerk with him to Mississippi.

 

[tony_gunter]

I'm tracking with you 100%, but it's the only theory that seems plausible... so far. I'm just stuck on the dispatch to Stockton. If it had been a brigade, division, district, or department train I would think it would be reported up from that echelon through channels. I'm inferring from the vagueness of Pemberton's dispatch that Stockton would know what "ammunition from Edwards" meant and that the ammunition was under his purview, not yet turned over to Mayo. The sketchiness of the railroads and Pemberton's near schizophrenic orders may add context. Also, it's not certain that the ammunition and provisions at Hazelhurst and the 32 pounder capture are related. Not sure if its possible to resolve this outside a trip to DC and the NARA for QM records.

In Compelled to Appear in Print, Pemberton states that he received a status update from Bowen sometime after midnight on May 1st along with a request for "certain field artillery ammunition."
(Pemberton's paraphrase)

Pemberton then replies that the ammunition has been sent. This is almost certainly the ammunition that was sent from Edwards.

I'm sure the orders are in Pemberton's log book in the archives. Maybe it was ammunition being produced in Jackson, so Pemberton sent the order to the commander of the Jackson arsenal directly instead of to the ordnance officer?

 

[JohnG0609]

Welcome to CWT, @JohnG0609. It's nice to see a fellow Mississippian on board — and a local at that!

I like your theory. I too have never come across any other accounts that corroborate captured ammo moving from Edwards toward Port Gibson. Like @tony_gunter, I always assumed the incident referenced by Pemberton occurred in connection to Tilghman and Loring's movement on the Jackson Road on May 2.

Also, I know that after Port Gibson, Pemberton thought Bowen, Loring, and Tilghman might retreat to Rocky Springs rather than across Hankinson's Ferry. I don't think Pemberton learned the whole truth until the afternoon of May 3, so it is possible that Pemberton ordered additional ammunition from Edwards to Rocky Springs as late as May 3 to support them at Rocky Springs. But again, one would think that the Yankees would have reported capturing enemy ammunition on the road to Rocky Springs.

It also could be that the report was simply erroneously reported to Pemberton and he passed it along to Stockton, especially considering all the panic and confusion.

However, as is stated in your post, that 64 pounder was intended to be placed in the works at Grand Gulf and it was captured on the road to Port Gibson. Whether or not the ammunition captured on April 26 in Hazlehurst is connected is unclear — as you stated.

One of the difficulties—to me at least—is that these things occurred a week before Pemberton's May 3 dispatch to Stockton. Pemberton's May 3 message to Stockton seems to have a sense of immediacy to it— as if it belonged with all the other messages being sent and received and that referenced events of May 1-3 instead of events of a week prior. But I suppose it is possible that Pemberton had just found out about it and (as you alluded to) Stockton was uniquely situated to understand precisely what Pemberton was referencing.

Another one of the problems I have with trying to square all this is why ammunition would be sent from Edwards to Hazlehurst. This seems the biggest issue. If it indeed happened, it would have occurred before April 26. So, it might be worth going through the Confederate correspondences in the ORs for the month of April and see if there is some mention of this.

Is it possible that in April there were 64 (32-pounders) at Vicksburg or Fort Pemberton which had surplus ammunition? Maybe that ammunition was being sent from Vicksburg to Edwards and then somehow to Hazlehurst to await the 64 (32-pounder's) arrival? I can't think of any other reason for ammo to leave Edwards and move south.

I do know that there had been a company or two of Cockrell's brigade that had remained somewhere near Grenada while the rest were at Grand Gulf. These guys were eventually called up and shipped from Grenada to Hazlehurst/Gallatin where they unloaded from trains and marched directly to Grand Gulf (probably the same road as the 64-pounder). But for the life of me I can't find that account. I was trying to see if maybe they had left Hazlehurst in late April and that maybe ammunition had been sent from Edwards to Hazlehurst for them. But even that seems a stretch.

But I do hope you continue to try and solve it. It is certainly intriguing and worth looking into.

 

[JohnG0609]

Tony, Interestingly I was just looking at the 1-3 May timeframe and I came here to fully refute you. But I can't! I had ruled out that it was in response to Bowen's request for more artillery ammo:

But I went back and read Pemberton's reply:

Notice that JCP says only the Parrott ammo has gone by Hankinson's, he doesn't specify how the 6 & 12 pounder be sent.
While it doesn't prove this is the captured ammo it doesn't disprove it either. If nothing else it gives more context to the mysterious captured ammo.

Ultimately, its a minor point, I think. I've been attempting a more detailed analysis of Confederate logistics. I hit upon this "captured ammo" and I just couldn't shake the feeling of not knowing!

Kudos to you for nugging out an important detail.