Properly Angling a Forage Cap?

[Drame22]

Hello all,



So I've been slowly but surely putting together my Union uniform, and one thing that sticks out is my forage cap. For some reason, everyone and their mother seems to have it angled properly:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/union-infantry-line-formation-review-9959774.jpg


While mine, no matter what I do, always looks like:

http://www.uniondb.com/shopping/images/Uni0001a.JPG


It might as well be a shako!



Just to clarify; I did my homework before buying. I bought a size above what I needed, I've tried wetting it down to shape it. I'm currently wearing it, as I type this, in an attempt to break it in. I haven't gone so far as to sew it down yet, but if I hold it in the proper angle, the hat just barely stays on my head.



There's so little actual fabric wrapped around my head when it's angled, that any slight movement will slide it off my head. Perhaps I should have gone two sizes up? The actual size of the hat doesn't seem to be the problem; it seems like the hat is too short to properly fold forward. Not enough material holding it on my head when it's in the proper angle, and it stands like a shako when it 'feels right' on my head.



Any ideas? I have some nice brass numbers coming in, and I'd like to show them off in proper Civil War style. I'd also like to cease being the only man in a 40-man unit that can't get his forage cap to lay properly!

 

[johan_steele]

A lot of this might have more to do with the manufacture of your cap than anything else. There is an enormous difference between vendors. Some are really good others are... not.

My forage cap is from a high end vendor, but I don't recall who anymore, and I find it less comfortable than my "Hardee." An option might be upgrading to a dress hat aka Hardee or a slouch. I prefer the Hardee as it keeps the sun off my ears and the neck better than a cap and depending upon your impression may be more appropriate anyway. If you're doing a western impression the forage cap isn't all that appropriate as they were far less common. But AoP or AoC it is appropriate but still not unheard of for soldiers to wear their dress hat or a civilian slouch instead of a cap.

As for the brass I would not worry about it... IMO less is considerably more.

 

[Bryan_C]

Hello all,

So I've been slowly but surely putting together my Union uniform, and one thing that sticks out is my forage cap. For some reason, everyone and their mother seems to have it angled properly:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/union-infantry-line-formation-review-9959774.jpg

While mine, no matter what I do, always looks like:

http://www.uniondb.com/shopping/images/Uni0001a.JPG

It might as well be a shako!

Just to clarify; I did my homework before buying. I bought a size above what I needed, I've tried wetting it down to shape it. I'm currently wearing it, as I type this, in an attempt to break it in. I haven't gone so far as to sew it down yet, but if I hold it in the proper angle, the hat just barely stays on my head.

There's so little actual fabric wrapped around my head when it's angled, that any slight movement will slide it off my head. Perhaps I should have gone two sizes up? The actual size of the hat doesn't seem to be the problem; it seems like the hat is too short to properly fold forward. Not enough material holding it on my head when it's in the proper angle, and it stands like a shako when it 'feels right' on my head.

Any ideas? I have some nice brass numbers coming in, and I'd like to show them off in proper Civil War style. I'd also like to cease being the only man in a 40-man unit that can't get his forage cap to lay properly!

Hi Drame22,
I'm on my third (and favorite so far) forage cap. My first was too small. There wasn't really anything wrong with my second. It was mainstream quality and I was a bit annoyed that it would not "angle properly" like you mentioned. I'm second from the right in this photo. If you notice, you can see the brass on the crowns of everyone else's cap but mine.

The cap was not bad and I doubt anyone cared but me. Anyway, I eventually broke down and got a high-end cap. I just went with my hat size. As far as buying one or two sizes up, that's news to me. And by the way, I tend to wear a wicking skullcap underneath mine because I sweat a lot. It does help. So, when I got my current and most expensive cap, my wife didn't like it because she thought it was too small. I though so, too and thought about sending it back to the guy I got it from. But it's good now. If you don't already have one, a hat stretcher will help.

As far as the brass goes, it's your cap to do what you want to with it. But lot of reenactors I know tend to fall in with different units occasionally. So you might end up with a company letter or number different from the unit you're portraying for that weekend. Not to mention the wool fades easily and you have a permanent tattoo left behind after you remove the brass. Again, it's your gear, do what you want to with it. But if you're concerned about fitting in, you might want to think about this before you decorate your cap.

 

[Drame22]

Hello,


Thank you for the replies!



Johan:

I really do like the forage cap, both the look and the feel. I don't really want to switch it out for anything else. Furthermore, I'm already dedicated to a particular unit, which is why I ordered the brass. They're simple affairs and I can pop them out if need be.

So what is a high-end vendor? I bought mine on Ebay for $30, brand new. My other theory was material; this hat seems a little thick in terms of the wool. Are they supposed to be a thinner version of my sack coat's wool? Same feel and everything, just thinner slightly.

Your picture isn't quite what I'm aiming for in terms of angle, but I'd take it over my 'forage shako' any day!


Bryan:

Your unit's looking spiffy! Well done.


Yes, I seriously doubt the unit cares about it; it really bothers me in photos however, to be the one man with a shako hat while everyone else is sporting a properly angled forage cap showing off the unit brass. This is a personal mission to make the hat fit better. Or to find a better hat.



So what are the differences in terms of materials, for low-end and high-end caps?

 

[Stony]

My wife sewed mine down. Nobody knew.

 

[Legion Para]

Welcome to the forum Drame22.

Over the past twenty years Paul Smith, Joel Bohy, Greg Starbuck and Mike Stiles were known for making the highest standard Union caps.

You would be hard pressed to find a Paul Smith or Joel Bohy cap. Their caps would only be found on the secondary market.

Greg Starbuck is no longer making caps at this time. Greg is well known for his Confederate caps. His caps regularly appear on the secondary market.

Mike Stiles is still making caps and can be found on eBay and Facebook. Look for the Superior Cap Company.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Hello all,



So I've been slowly but surely putting together my Union uniform, and one thing that sticks out is my forage cap. For some reason, everyone and their mother seems to have it angled properly:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/union-infantry-line-formation-review-9959774.jpg


While mine, no matter what I do, always looks like:

http://www.uniondb.com/shopping/images/Uni0001a.JPG


It might as well be a shako!



Just to clarify; I did my homework before buying. I bought a size above what I needed, I've tried wetting it down to shape it. I'm currently wearing it, as I type this, in an attempt to break it in. I haven't gone so far as to sew it down yet, but if I hold it in the proper angle, the hat just barely stays on my head.



There's so little actual fabric wrapped around my head when it's angled, that any slight movement will slide it off my head. Perhaps I should have gone two sizes up? The actual size of the hat doesn't seem to be the problem; it seems like the hat is too short to properly fold forward. Not enough material holding it on my head when it's in the proper angle, and it stands like a shako when it 'feels right' on my head.



Any ideas? I have some nice brass numbers coming in, and I'd like to show them off in proper Civil War style. I'd also like to cease being the only man in a 40-man unit that can't get his forage cap to lay properly!

Welcome to CivilWarTalk.

You asked an interesting question, I'm enjoying the replies from our knowledgeable members.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Greg Starbuck is still making Caps... they can also frequently can be found stocked at S&S Sutler in Gettysburg.

 

[Drame22]

In reverse order:

Frederick: My thanks, I will check Greg out. So was it the material that made the difference then? Thinner wool?


7th: I appreciate it; I always try to have interesting questions! Thank you for the welcome.


Legion: In your opinion, which is the best for my goal of angling? I don't mind second-hand. If anything that means I have less breaking-in to do.


Stony: I don't think that would work on mine. Like I said, when it's properly angled, there's not enough fabric around my head to keep it in place. Which is a shame, because I truly love forage caps over all other hats. Except perhaps Hardees, but that's just far too flamboyant for an Irish private to have.




Next order of business; I'm looking for a used Civil War rifled musket. Not particular on caliber or model. I would prefer an 1861 .58 Springfield, but I love Enfields and Zouaves too. Never fired a "Richmond" gun, so I can't speak to them. However, I cannot afford the $800+ price tag for a new model. Who knew such old technology would be so costly to make? Smoothbores seem even MORE expensive!

I've never paid over $600 for a gun, and I hope to never have to. Does anyone know a good place for used guns? Preferably a classifieds section rather than a store; I don't have a lot of cash to simply buy it, but I DO have a ton of valuable stuff. MRE's, crossbows, firearms, miniatures, baseball collectibles....you name it. I even have a sealed box of Civil Defense rations from 1962! I would make it well worth anyone's while to trade me a rifled musket.

 

[Private Watkins]

Welcome... perhaps a photo of said cap on said Drame22-head would help the esteemed members of this forum offer further tips...

 

[Camp Randall Armory]

Your cap doesn't angle right because it is incorrectly and cheaply made, that's just the way it is. I got my cap from N.J. Sekela and it looks great. If you don't want to spend that much, my advice is to go to sutlers at events and find one with the look you're going for. Shopping via ebay isn't the route to go if you want quality unless you know what you're looking for.

As for muskets, just ask around and hope you run into an old timer leaving the hobby and unloading his gear. The market price is generally above 600 right now so be patient, a deal might come up through friends.

 

[Frederick14Va]

In reverse order:

Frederick: My thanks, I will check Greg out. So was it the material that made the difference then? Thinner wool?

Next order of business; I'm looking for a used Civil War rifled musket. Not particular on caliber or model. I would prefer an 1861 .58 Springfield, but I love Enfields and Zouaves too. Never fired a "Richmond" gun, so I can't speak to them. However, I cannot afford the $800+ price tag for a new model. Who knew such old technology would be so costly to make? Smoothbores seem even MORE expensive!

I've never paid over $600 for a gun, and I hope to never have to. Does anyone know a good place for used guns? Preferably a classifieds section rather than a store; I don't have a lot of cash to simply buy it, but I DO have a ton of valuable stuff. MRE's, crossbows, firearms, miniatures, baseball collectibles....you name it. I even have a sealed box of Civil Defense rations from 1962! I would make it well worth anyone's while to trade me a rifled musket.

The quality makers tend to use quality materials, and authentic proper construction of the cap... Hence it will normally sit and wear correctly for that proper look.... Many of the cheap collectible caps use a heavy course blanket wool... and frequently found to use a costume pattern of sorts... so you could run over it repeatedly with a truck and it still wouldn't lay right...

Weapon... if your already with a reenactment unit I would suggest to see if they have a preference of musket first... some may prefer one over another depending on their particular portrayal etc... Weapons of any sorts are more expensive that they used to be... might not have paid over 600 before... but may find it hard pressed to locate even a used one under 600 now... More used ones out there on the market right now so might get lucky... Have seen a few around 500-600 mark once in awhile... Better condition ones or those that have been professionally defarbed, tend to go for a bit more...

One reason for the higher prices for even these black powder guns is that they are all imported... In brief and to simplify.... The CS Richmond is a CS copy of the 1861 Springfield... other than the markings on the lock and a few other furniture differences they are basically the same with the repros.... With either the 61 Springfield or an Enfield you can pretty much fit into any generic scenario or impression... Others options out there are the M1816, or M1842 Springfield, and 1841 Miss, which are moreso Confederate favorites.... I wouldn't chose the "Zouave" aka M1863 Remington.. its a two bander and they saw very limited actual use during the war.. Petrosoli, Euroarms, and Armisport are the usual common array of modern makers found circulating out there... I would avoid any made in India, since they have controversial reputation of rather poor quality (and safety).. usually found advertised a bit cheaper than others..... Many units have even banned them from being carried or used... Just be aware... Good luck

 

[Bryan_C]

I really do like the forage cap, both the look and the feel. I don't really want to switch it out for anything else. Furthermore, I'm already dedicated to a particular unit, which is why I ordered the brass. They're simple affairs and I can pop them out if need be.

That's probably not a good idea. If you keep bending the prongs on the brass to keep attaching/re-attaching them, it won't take much for them to break off.

So what is a high-end vendor? I bought mine on Ebay for $30, brand new. My other theory was material; this hat seems a little thick in terms of the wool. Are they supposed to be a thinner version of my sack coat's wool? Same feel and everything, just thinner slightly.

I've definitely learned in this hobby flannel weight- as opposed to blanket weight- is the better way to go. Of course, it's more expensive. But it will be more comfortable in the summer for sure.

My current cap is Greg Starbuck. I bought it "used" from a guy off of a reenactors forum site, although it was in like new shape when I got it. It's well broken in now. A good quality cap (and from the time you've put into this discussion, I think that's what you really want) starts at around $125. Maybe you should ask guys in your unit where they got their caps from.

I don't know when the next big event is but another thing you could do is go to an event where various sulters are and examine their caps. You'll see a difference. If you live near Gettysburg, where a lot of these sutlers have their shops, you could do that this weekend.

Thanks for the compliments on my picture!

 

[chellers]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk.

You've received some great advice here from guys who know what they are talking about.

 

[johan_steele]

Hello,


Thank you for the replies!



Johan:

I really do like the forage cap, both the look and the feel. I don't really want to switch it out for anything else. Furthermore, I'm already dedicated to a particular unit, which is why I ordered the brass. They're simple affairs and I can pop them out if need be.

So what is a high-end vendor? I bought mine on Ebay for $30, brand new. My other theory was material; this hat seems a little thick in terms of the wool. Are they supposed to be a thinner version of my sack coat's wool? Same feel and everything, just thinner slightly.

Your picture isn't quite what I'm aiming for in terms of angle, but I'd take it over my 'forage shako' any day!


Bryan:

Your unit's looking spiffy! Well done.


Yes, I seriously doubt the unit cares about it; it really bothers me in photos however, to be the one man with a shako hat while everyone else is sporting a properly angled forage cap showing off the unit brass. This is a personal mission to make the hat fit better. Or to find a better hat.



So what are the differences in terms of materials, for low-end and high-end caps?

Simply put it sounds like you got what you paid for. $30 for a new forage cap won't get you much. Most likely the hat is constructed from blanket weight or heavier wool and a visor that is twice, or more, the thickness it should be. Without looking I'd wager the construction, materials and pattern are not authentic. Several quality vendors have been mentioned & I've attached a link to a thread discussing various vendors. I've also attached a link to a forum with some threads that might help you.

In re-enacting like in life you will get what you pay for. It is often advisable to spend a little more to get higher quality.

As to firearms the secondary market right now has many inexpensive used options and several times there have been good used rifle muskets posted on this board for about $625 +/-.

IMO you need to do a good bit of research before buying anything. As an example if you have a specific unit in mind for your portrayal and you pull the trigger on a nice Armi-Sport rifled M1842 on the secondary market and then discover they were issued the M1861 and never carried anything else during the duration you will have made a costly error. Another error would be insisting that you wear your hat brass on your forage cap only to discover later that the unit you portray didn't even receive an issue of forage caps until late 1864 & that even then they were not popular and the majority of men preffered their civilian or Hardee hats. If you opt for the PEC

Never assume the person telling you something is the expert they claim to be. They may simply be repeating what they were told or making it up as they go. To quote: "Trust but verify."

When it comes to ACW era firearms reproductions... after handling many originals I'm not sure what the Italians were reproducing. Pedersoli has done a superb job recently but I still prefer my originals and customs. I will never buy a firearm without first handling and inspecting it unless I know and trust the person selling or they have been vouched for by someone I know and trust. When you mentioned that you might pick up a "Zouve" for re-enacting purposes warning bells went off for me. If you belong to a unit that allows a "Zouve" in the ranks... you can check their other standards but I would advise finding another unit. Why? The "Zouve" was never issued in any numbers and it is an arm that is favored by the less authenticly minded re-enactors.

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/vendor-feedback.22930/
http://civilwartalk.com/forums/impressions-of-the-civil-war.140/

 

[Cumpston1862]

Drame22-

The above advice is spot on and I will try not to keep going over what has already been said. Something also to remember is very few of us are built like an 1860s era soldier. We are on average taller and bigger. Also for some of us our head shape doesn't really accommodate the forage cap or especially the kepi hat when authentically made. If you have a hat that was made with the wrong materials much as my pards mentioned above its going to be more of a problem. I can also tell you that I have had the exact problem. I drove my wife crazy buying hats. I purchased several mainstream caps with the hope that I could break them in with wear but if it isn't built right with the right materials no matter of seasoning is gonna make up for it.

I have heard it said many many times and its true. A good cap/hat will enhance an impression and a bad one will destroy one. If you are going to go high end/authentic on one item make it your headwear. Its really what everyone will notice more than any single part of your kit.

Now having had the same problem as you I think the cap you are looking for is the private purchase/commercial forage cap. Not to be insulting but to explain what that is for everyone's benefit as some may not know. The private purchase forage/commercial cap is a hat that was made by a company outside of the military to soldiers through sutlers, venders and their own storefronts. Tiffanys of New York was one such company. These hats traditionally were of better quality and also they tended to be built a little taller which means they had more of a droop look. So if you are someone like me who has a bigger head this maybe an option.

This is the private purchase/commercial forage cap made by Sekela. It runs $ 125.00 plus shipping. It is a very well made and authentic cap that will serve you well and give you that drooping look you want.

http://www.njsekela.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=42

Greg Starbuck also makes great caps and is another solid option. Pictured below is his version of the same hat.

https://www.facebook.com/Kepis-by-Starbuck-1495997197355435/?fref=nf


Expired Image Removed

You cannot go wrong with a cap from a more authentic vendor. My avatar is a tintype of me wearing my forage cap I purchased from Wambaugh & White. The cap itself was made by Mike Anderson who retired several years ago regretfully. I would purchase another one without hesitation if he still made them. I also own a Greg Starbuck forage cap that I am very partial to as well.

 

[Bryan_C]

Drame22,
The very good news is, for now, you have something rather than nothing. You may not have the cap you want but you have something to go out into the field in. I don't know about others here but I've never been to an event where someone was sent home because his impression wasn't good enough.

Maybe you can put a new, quality cap on your Christmas list or get one for your birthday. I don't know what your budget is or else I imagine you would have spent the $150 already for a top-of-the-line cap. Until you can do better, focus on learning from others and growing in the hobby.

And another place you might consider getting used items is the Civil War Reenactors Trade Blanket page on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/141404549289670/

 

[James N.]

Welcome to the forums from a former fellow reenactor!

 

[Drame22]

In reverse order:


James: Thank you! I've been re-enacting for a long time but I'm new to the forum.


Bryan: Oh, my unit doesn't mind my cap. They tease me about it, but no one's sending me home for something like that. I just wanted to get a 'uniform' look throughout the unit, and in pictures, I'm the one with the 'stovepipe' forage cap. But yes, it's much better than nothing. An hour of guard duty in the rain taught me that!


Cumpston: Alright, so that confirms what everyone else says; it was the thick low-quality wool that is the problem. Honestly my budget is fine, I just didn't expect a hat would be $150! I've never paid that much for even an entire set of clothing. But, if high-quality is the means to my goal, then I'll get a high-quality model. Thank you Cumpston, and everyone here, for the wealth of information! I've got a lot of homework to do yet; and here I was thinking I was done with researching forage caps.

And don't worry; new information is never insulting! So Sekela it is, I'll be placing my order soon. Guess I'll return this Ebay cheapo hat. Should I still get one size up, or my normal hat size?



Johan: It's certainly thick; the same thickness as my coat in fact. So yes, it sounds like the cheapness was the issue. Thank you for the rifle advice. I know that "you get what you pay for" is a common theme in re-enacting, just didn't expect it to carry over to something as simple as a hat. Or, seemingly simple, I should say.



Chellers: Thank you for the welcome!




Bryan: Unfortunately, I'm as far west as west gets. Portland, Oregon. We do copycat the Eastern armies however; technically in re-enactments I'm a Pennsylvanian Irish volunteer. I would absolutely LOVE to see the full Gettysburg re-enactment. It's on my bucket list. We only get a few hundred re-enactors out here; tens of thousands I cannot even imagine.



Frederick/Randall/Watkins: Condensing answers now, as we've arrived at a consensus. Packaged the hat up and contacted the seller for a refund. Unfortunately Watkins I do not have a camera. The pictures I referred to are group photos taken during re-enactments.




Thank you all for the information! Looks like I'm going with a Seleka cap. I'll see you all on the battlefield.

 

[Cumpston1862]

Drame22-
If you are going to buy a Sekela cap I would get one size bigger. Always good to buy a hat stretcher too as it will keep the hat from shrinking between campaigns. Greg Starbuck makes dandy caps too and is very open to questions so I wouldn't count him out.

More than anything be warned. Once you get an authentic hat and realize the benefits you may become a bit of a collector like many of us!