Pre Civil War sword.

[major bill]

Snow day at the Michigan History Museum so I took a few photos. This is a pre-Civil War sword, and a nice one at that. The reason I posted this is that several Michigan newspapers printed stories where the city would give a departing Civil War officer a sword from the War of 1812 to take off to war with them to add additional glory to the swords. I have always wondered what a office so present would do with a historic sword like this. The office would not have carried the "famous sword" into battle, or would they? If they did not keep the sword where they could keep an eye on it the sword may have found a new owner. These old sward would have been of limited use in my view.

 

[WJC]

Snow day at the Michigan History Museum so I took a few photos. This is a pre-Civil War sword, and a nice one at that. The reason I posted this is that several Michigan newspapers printed stories where the city would give a departing Civil War officer a sword from the War of 1812 to take off to war with them to add additional glory to the swords. I have always wondered what a office so present would do with a historic sword like this. The office would not have carried the "famous sword" into battle, or would they? If they did not keep the sword where they could keep an eye on it the sword may have found a new owner. These old sward would have been of limited use in my view.

View attachment 170214

Thanks for posting. That certainly is a very nice sword. Doesn't appear to have been handled too roughly. One has to wonder, though, just how many like it DID get into battle. Some might not have been as caring for theirs as was this officer.

 

[Glen_C]

I have posted this picture in the past. As we can see the straps to the scabbard and a sword belt, we can be pretty sure it was being carried.

As to the sword shown and the mythology of ancestral swords from the war of 1812 carried in the ACW, there were many. many more carried from 50 years of militia stores.

As to fancy officer swords surviving in good condition, where is the scabbard for the item shown and why does it show obvious signs of wear? Again, rather than play 20 questions, I'd rather read an exact transcription of how this particular sword is being displayed by the museum. Without a better look, I wouldn't even place that particular eagle as old as the first two decades of the 19th century but what do I know anyway?

Some swords I own are basically new old stock and were never carried, showing zero wear. This one from a NYC retailer in the 1820s. Zero wear to the scabbard rings, 99.99% of the original blade polish. A little bit of tarnish, That's about it.

von Borcke brought his Prussian sword with him. Not ancestral and not from early in the century.

 

[AUG]

I recall that Brig. Gen. Maxcy Gregg, a South Carolina brigade commander in the ANV, and Colonel Eugene Waggaman of the 10th Louisiana Infantry both carried ancestral swords that were used in the American Revolution. Both officers were said to have carried them into battle.

At Malvern Hill Col. Waggaman actually used his sword in hand to hand combat when he broke through the Federal line with a small group of soldiers. He and the men were quickly captured and Waggaman threw his sword away to keep it from falling into enemy hands. Nevertheless, a Union soldier picked it up and somehow it ended up in the hands of Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, as when Waggaman was exchanged a short time later Gen. Hancock had the sword returned to him. Today it is owned by one of Waggaman's descendants.

 

[major bill]

The sword in post #1 belonged to Lewis Cass, Territorial Governor of Michigan. As a Colonel in the War of 1812 he refused to surrender his sword to the British and broke his sword before he would give to the British. When General Hull surrendered Detroit to the British Colonel Cass was in the field with his men and did not believe he should be included in the surrender.

So if the above is true, the broken sword part, this must be a sword Lewis Cass obtained after the war of 1812.

I do not think the sword in post #1 is overly fancy for a man like Lewis Cass.

 

[James N.]

Snow day at the Michigan History Museum so I took a few photos. This is a pre-Civil War sword, and a nice one at that. The reason I posted this is that several Michigan newspapers printed stories where the city would give a departing Civil War officer a sword from the War of 1812 to take off to war with them to add additional glory to the swords. I have always wondered what a office so present would do with a historic sword like this. The office would not have carried the "famous sword" into battle, or would they? If they did not keep the sword where they could keep an eye on it the sword may have found a new owner. These old sward would have been of limited use in my view.

Not only would they, they absolutely did! In the best example I can think of, at the Battle of Fair Oaks/Seven Pines in May, 1862, commanding Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston was armed with his father's sword and pistols, said to date to the Revolution. When he was hit and his horse killed he asked the stretcher party carrying him to the rear to go back and retrieve them. Other officers carried various "antique" swords, usually for sentimental or symbolic reasons like this.

 

[James N.]

... von Borcke brought his Prussian sword with him. Not ancestral and not from early in the century.
View attachment 170232

Since von Borcke had been an officer in the Prussian dragoons, it must've seemed an obvious choice to bring it with him where it could serve as mute testimony to his previous service and experience.

 

[Gettysburg Echos]

Snow day at the Michigan History Museum so I took a few photos. This is a pre-Civil War sword, and a nice one at that. The reason I posted this is that several Michigan newspapers printed stories where the city would give a departing Civil War officer a sword from the War of 1812 to take off to war with them to add additional glory to the swords. I have always wondered what a office so present would do with a historic sword like this. The office would not have carried the "famous sword" into battle, or would they? If they did not keep the sword where they could keep an eye on it the sword may have found a new owner. These old sward would have been of limited use in my view.

View attachment 170214

That's a beauty and looks to be used some I bet at the time that baby was almost $15. Chances are it could have been a gift worn mostly at social functions, many officers had battle weapons and dress weapons.

 

[major bill]

When I go on Wednesday perhaps I should photograph the scabbard.

 

[Package4]

Snow day at the Michigan History Museum so I took a few photos. This is a pre-Civil War sword, and a nice one at that. The reason I posted this is that several Michigan newspapers printed stories where the city would give a departing Civil War officer a sword from the War of 1812 to take off to war with them to add additional glory to the swords. I have always wondered what a office so present would do with a historic sword like this. The office would not have carried the "famous sword" into battle, or would they? If they did not keep the sword where they could keep an eye on it the sword may have found a new owner. These old sward would have been of limited use in my view.

View attachment 170214

Depending upon rank, foot officers swords were largely ornamental, their main and critical use was in directing troops in battle. A Captain of a company for example would utilize the sword to point directionally, when the din was too loud to hear commands. Halt would be holding be holding the sword across the chest facing the ranks. The command to fire would be to hold the sword over the head and then slicing down, of course the officer would be to the side of the company at that time.

The noise in a field of black powder weapons firing is deafening and commands are virtually impossible to hear once engagement commences beyond volley fire.

I'm not saying that they were not used for offense or defense, of course they were a weapon of last resort, but the pistol was utilized prior.

 

[major bill]

The sword from post #1. It is in fairly good shape for the age.

 

[major bill]

 

[Package4]

View attachment 178748

That is a beautiful sword and certainly was prized as you can tell by the condition.

I purchased at auction a M1860 Colt and Starr M1812 contract cavalry saber that belonged to a Virginia officer by the name of Kerr, so yes they were used very extensively especially early in the war. There were various reasons for this, a continuance of military tradition within the family, a scarcity of arms early on and as previous stated, they were largely ornamental, in the infantry, depending upon rank, so their age and provenance were not as important.

 

[tokashikibop]

Very interesting thread gentlemen, made me think about a model 1796 I picked up last month, light Calvary sabre with a United States motif. I was thinking war of 1812 era but maybe a bit later. What do y'all think?

Best regards, Bob

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

Very nice sword. From the style and design of the decoration, I would guess this was an import from Birmingham from the 1820s. I don't believe three-colored blades with B&G interspersed with bright etch panels were used as early as the War of 1812.

 

[hawknknife]

I own an identical sword figure #1, cut down to side knife..about 16 inch blade. It has a very crude scabbard with it, lead mounted, I was told it was a Confederate done deal....

 

[tokashikibop]

Thanks for the opinion Rich!