Pre-Civil-War large field command experience

[trice]

By that logic, every officer who wasn't a pre-war regular army officer and/or with heavy militia experience was favored by bias. There are not enough West Pointers for each regiment to be commanded by one (short of completely cannibalizing the Old Army).

And the average West Pointer doesn't have all that much experience at brigade+ kind of responsibility. Probably none. And by 1864, both West Pointers and volunteers (politically favored or not) have learned how to handle that - both learning it by actually having to lead brigades and divisions and corps. The fact that (for instance) John Gibbon went to West Point and commanded an artillery battery prior to the war did not give him experience leading several thousand men.

This was pulled out of the Sherman was a Hero thread. I thought it might be better off as a topic on its own.

At the start of the Civil War, roughly 14,000 of the 16,000 soldiers in the US Army were stationed West of the Mississippi River, some 2000 of them in Texas. The average post was 2 companies. Forces as large as a battalion in one place were rarely seen; the largest expedition between the Mexican War and the Civil War was the one A. S. Johnston led out to deal with the Mormons in Utah.

No one had any large command experience to brag about there

So who did have experience in the field with large commands?

Winfield Scott, of course, from the War of 1812 and the Mexican War. Vastly overweight, with the gout and in his 70s. Died soon after the war started.

Patterson, the man who commanded in the Shenandoah during 1st Bull Run. Another War of 1812 vet.

John Wool, who commanded Fort Monroe. Another War of 1812 vet.

A. S. Johnston, of course, as already mentioned. R. E. Lee had taken several companies in a pursuit of Commanches in Texas that went 1200 miles on horseback. A few others.

In the Mexican War, the Regulars generally had politicos in command of divisions and assigned a Regular to handle the work. Lee and Joe Johnston and Beauregard were all on the staff of Scott during the Mexico City campaign, having little direct command experience since they were use more as flying trouble-shooters.

As a result, the man with the most direct command experience moving large bodies about under combat conditions was quite possibly ... Joe Hooker.

Tim

 

[Old Bay]

A pretty crazy time considering McDowell, who was only a Major, gets the nod of commanding a full army basically because he was around and had some experience on the command staff.

 

[Elennsar]

This was pulled out of the Sherman was a Hero thread. I thought it might be better off as a topic on its own.

At the start of the Civil War, roughly 14,000 of the 16,000 soldiers in the US Army were stationed West of the Mississippi River, some 2000 of them in Texas. The average post was 2 companies. Forces as large as a battalion in one place were rarely seen; the largest expedition between the Mexican War and the Civil War was the one A. S. Johnston led out to deal with the Mormons in Utah.

No one had any large command experience to brag about there

So who did have experience in the field with large commands?

Winfield Scott, of course, from the War of 1812 and the Mexican War. Vastly overweight, with the gout and in his 70s. Died soon after the war started.

Patterson, the man who commanded in the Shenandoah during 1st Bull Run. Another War of 1812 vet.

John Wool, who commanded Fort Monroe. Another War of 1812 vet.

A. S. Johnston, of course, as already mentioned. R. E. Lee had taken several companies in a pursuit of Commanches in Texas that went 1200 miles on horseback. A few others.

In the Mexican War, the Regulars generally had politicos in command of divisions and assigned a Regular to handle the work. Lee and Joe Johnston and Beauregard were all on the staff of Scott during the Mexico City campaign, having little direct command experience since they were use more as flying trouble-shooters.

As a result, the man with the most direct command experience moving large bodies about under combat conditions was quite possibly ... Joe Hooker.

Tim

I believe you mentioned earlier what Hooker had done, but could you repost it here?

Looking at how some regulars had virtually no experience to mention (mostly the young ones): Leonidas Polk might count almost as a volunteer. While a West Pointer, "He resigned almost immediately upon graduation, and entered the Episcopal ministry..."

So not only does he have no experience actually serving as an officer, its been more than half his life since he even was at West Point. For all of that to be fresh in his head seems unlikely.

 

[matthew mckeon]

I think Elwell remarked on his corps command of 15,000-20,000 men in the ANV: his previous military experience was commanding 50 United States Dragoons.Of course he had some intermediate commands in the CSA, but you get the picture.

 

[trice]

I believe you mentioned earlier what Hooker had done, but could you repost it here?

Hooker graduated West Point in 1837, a middle of the pack guy (29 of 50). He became a 2nd Lt. in the 1st Artillery, sent to Florida for the 2nd Seminole War. He made 1st Lt. in 1838 (a raise to $546/year!!) and was up in Maine for that fiasco called the Aroostock War. In 1845 he was down at Pensacola awaiting leave when the war with Mexico started brewing. While many Army officers (R. E. Lee and U. S. Grant come to mind) were opposed to that as a war of conquest, but Hooker saw it as a war of personal opportunity; instead of going on leave he was appointed to Taylor's staff. In Mexico, he received brevets for Moterrey (captain), Natural Bridge 9major) and Chapultepec (Lt. colonel), exhibiting considerable courage and activity in the field.

Taylor made him brigade commissary for General Persifor Smith (a capable Princeton man and lawyer who was actually a decent commander as well -- unusual for political generals in that war). Smith had a brigade commander named Hamer (a solid Democrat out of Ohio commissioned by President Polk). Hooker was made Hamer's chief-of-staff to compensate for his lack of military knowledge and experience. As such, he essentially did all the behind-the-scenes work for his general -- and at Monterey won his first brevet, along with prominent mention by Taylor and Hamer in their reports.

Hamer went home sick (dysentery). Hooker was left unattached, and Major General William Orlando Butler snapped him up as an aide. Butler was a war of 1812 veteran prised by Andrew Jackson, but had left the Army to practice law after that. Butler had seen Hooker in action at Monterey, so we have to assume he was impressed. They missed the subsequent battle of Buena Vista and it became apparent the main action would be switching to Scott, who had taken Vera Cruz. Hooker wangled an appointment as chief-of-staff to Brigadier George Cadwallader (described as a "polished veteran of Philadelphia military celebrations" in one source), apparently once again to compensate for a general's lack of experience.

Hooker again did the behind the scenes work of bringing Cadwallader's Brigade (1,000 men escorting a supply train and a few hundred thousand dollars in specie) forward from Vera Cruz to join Scott at Puebla. At Natural Bridge the Mexicans tried to block them and Captain Hooker led an assault that cleared the way for the column.

Reaching Puebla, Hooker moved on. Now he became officially assistant adjutant general to Major General Gideon Pillow (President Polk's former law partner, who maintained a direct correspondence with the President over Scott's head), but actually served as his chief-of-staff. Once again, Hooker was slotted in to do the real work of managing the unit for a political general. Scott had known Hooker since 1838 (the Aroostock War) and had confidence in him. Most observers feel that anything accomplished by Pillow's Division was done by Hooker. Pillow said to him: "When you see occassion for issuing an order, give it without reference to me. You understand these matters.". Cadwallader was one Brigade commander in the division; Franklin Pierece, future President, was another.

Their are lots of stories about the campaign that followed, but it all culminated in the attack on Chapultepec. Pillow was wounded during the fighting, and Hooker pretty much ran the action from then on. He received his third brevet, and much praise in reports, including from Scott. He had direct experience maneuvering and fighting a force of about 2500-3000 men (much larger than anything R. E. Lee or Joe Johnston ever handled before the war.) He was regarded by tough military veterans such as Scott, Taylor, and Persifor Smith as the sort of junior officer you grabbed onto if you could and used to handle difficult and sensitive problems (like running a brigade or a division behind the scenes, while the "amateur" general got the credit).

Then the war ended. Scott and Pillow got into a wangle (probably based on Scott-for-President talk and Pillow's political affiliation with Polk). Hooker hitched his wagon to Pillow, testifying for Pillow (not exactly against Scott) in the court of inquiry. Hooker ends up in California, out of the Army by 1853, in legal and financial difficulties, trying unsuccessfully to get back in (1858), and serving as a California Militia colonel (1859).

In 1861, he organized a regiment of California volunteers until he realized they would not be sent back East. He offered his services directly to General Scott in Washington -- no reply (surprise!) Discouraged and once again "out of funds", he went into Chapman's saloon in San Francisco. The owner asked him why he was down, he explained, and Chapman handed him $1,000 out of the safe for his trip back East to get in the war. Hooker took the steamer 2 days later (May 21, 1861).

Looking at how some regulars had virtually no experience to mention (mostly the young ones): Leonidas Polk might count almost as a volunteer. While a West Pointer, "He resigned almost immediately upon graduation, and entered the Episcopal ministry..."

So not only does he have no experience actually serving as an officer, its been more than half his life since he even was at West Point. For all of that to be fresh in his head seems unlikely.

Leonidas Polk had two things going for him in the Confederate military as far as I can see:
1) he was a member of the powerful Polk political family and
2) his room-mates at West Point (3 to a room) were Jefferson Davis and A. S. Johnston

Trivia: West Point legend has it that Jefferson Davis had a fistfight with Joseph E. Johnston over the affections of the daughter of Bennie Haven (owner of the famous tavern, off-limits to cadets, just off the post) with Joe Johnston's good friend R. E. Lee watching. The older/bigger/stronger Joe Johnston beat him easily, but the smaller Davis kept getting up and coming on. Some people say that was the start of all that Civil War squabbling between the two 30+ years later.

Tim

 

[trice]

A pretty crazy time considering McDowell, who was only a Major, gets the nod of commanding a full army basically because he was around and had some experience on the command staff.

Being a Major was a pretty big deal in the pre-war Army.

In the days after the Mexican War, the whole Army was generally about 12,000 men, expanded to about 16,000 during Jeff Davis' turn as Secretary of War in the 1850s. In 1860, there were a bit over 1,000 officers in the service (just over 300 "went South"). Overwhemingly, most of them were Captains, 1st Lieutenants, and 2nd Lieutenants. There just were not that many major slots out there.

For instance, the US had 5 mounted regiments: 1st and 2nd Dragoons, Mounted Rifles, 1st and 2nd Cavalry. The last two were formed by Jeff Davis in 1855, but the other three were around for the Mexican War. Each would have one Colonel, one Lieutenant Colonel, and two Majors.

These were plum slots. In the forming of the 2nd Cavalry, A. S. Johnston was named Colonel, with R. E. Lee as Lt. Colonel. George Thomas and Braxton Bragg were to be the majors. (Bragg was on extended leave at the time, having married a rich woman and started yet another feud, this time with the Secretary of War, Jefferson Davis (who apparently was willing to let bygones be bygones). Previous feuds included one with the head of the Artillery branch when Bragg was a 2nd Lt., and then with the commanding general of the Army, Winfield Scott. Bragg dragged his feet about returning, never did show up, and when the crescendo of complaints finally rose enough to force him to a will-you-or-won't-you decision, resigned to become a rich sugar planter in Louisiana rather than accept.

Another example: Scott thought R. E. Lee and Robert Anderson were possibly the two best officers he had in 1860. Lee was a Lt. Colonel; Anderson was a Major.

Tim

 

[RobertP]

Gen'l. Benard Bee, CSA, to whom the Jackson 'Stonewall' quote is attributed. Was mortally wounded at 1st Manassas.

After the Mexican-American War, Bee was posted to garrison duty at Pascagoula, Mississippi, where he served as adjutant. From 1849 to 1855, he was on frontier duty in New Mexico. Most of his time was spent at Fort Fillmore near Las Cruces, New Mexico. In 1855, Bee was promoted to captain of Company D of the Tenth Infantry and posted to Fort Snelling, Minnesota. While at Fort Snelling, he met and married Sophia Elizabeth Hill, the sister of a fellow officer. In 1857 Bee's company took part in the Utah War, where he was placed in command of the Utah Volunteer Battalion and brevetted to the rank of lieutenant colonel. In 1860, Bee was posted to Fort Laramie, Wyoming, and briefly served as the fort's commanding officer.