Potsdam CS markings? And questions

[1867crete]

Hello looking over this Potsdam musket, I ran across some questions. How were the stocks originaly finshed? And I am questioning the ram rod as being correct. Where is a good place to pick up a bayonet and what are they running?And lastly I'm sure the C S is the inspectors initials? Not what you automatically think of!? Or is it something special?Lol the 3pic shows a crown over a t or 7 rather hard to make out several markings on all the hardwareTook pictures of the most prominent ones! Curious how many of these were brought over and who they were issues too? But having no US inspector marks, that I can see...the CS is my only hope of CW use?! What's ya'lls thoughts?

 

[James N.]

Looks pretty bogus to me; why would it be necessary for the Confederacy to mark weapons they knew were theirs? I'd be happier if it were some kind of state markings instead - but that would've meant nothing to the mark that fakers active in the heyday of things like this in the 1950's and '60's were out to deceive.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

I'm confident that the "CS" mark is a later enhancement to attract a buyer. There are no recorded Confederate purchases of Prussian arms. The Federals on the other hand bought 165,000 Prussian arms during the war; 100,300 of which were recorded as being smoothbores.
Generally speaking there are no Federal viewers marks on imported arms, save for a few early purchased Enfields.

As you surmised the ramrod is a incorrect replacement. It would have originally been a fairly thick iron ramrod that is slightly trumpet headed at both ends. Fun fact, the Prussian ramming end was inserted into the stock rather than protruding from it in the typical fashion. The Prussian's did not rotate the ramrod to ram the cartridge. The exposed end of the ramrod was has female threads to accept a wiper and puller for cleaning.

A comparable bayonet should run you about $100 to $150. However, the Prussian M1809 uses a spring catch under the barrel that a catch on the rear of the socket engages to attach the bayonet. Your musket looks to be missing this piece. You will be able to find a proper replacement catch and a correct ramrod (probably a reproduction) at S and S Firearms. They may also have a proper bayonet. However, bayonets for these were all hand fitted, so you will probably need to try a few out before you get one with a good fit.

Cheers,
Garrett

 

[originalrebelyell]

Nice musket I am not sure about the CS mark I would be a little suspect of it, but still a nice musket. I have been looking for one for quite a while.

 

[tbuckley]

My M1842 Austrian Engineer's Rifle has CS stamped on the barrel. I always assumed that it was added sometime after 1961. It is always possible that Confederate soldiers did use captured foreign arms but they never would have been stamped CS, but I could be wrong.

 

[originalrebelyell]

I don't think they would have stamped captured muskets. I think they would have just issued them. I could be wrong too though.

 

[UCVRelics]

I agree with my learned fellow collectors.

 

[1867crete]

Thanks all for input.will look up s and s firearms for bayonet and attachment device. It is a solid musket, very tight action and expect for the ram rod appears complete.if I read correctly the us did not stamp import arms? So chance of being ACW use?The "CS" luckily never came into the negotiating of the price for as I had my concerns about it being a real stamp.... we settled at 550 I thought was a fair price for a period musket.

 

[Craig L Barry]

The only arms which I am aware of with CS on the arm, with those initials meaning "Confederate States" are those manufactured (as opposed to repaired or refurbished) at the CS Armory. This would be arms such as the Richmond rifle-musket. I think the Fayetteville rifle was stamped CSA, not CS. In other words, those initials would not be found on imported European muskets like this or a battlefield pick up.

 

[originalrebelyell]

Post some photos of the complete musket.

 

[Flint_Hunter]

I have one of these as well. I always figured it was captured since the South didn't import these as well. IIRC I read somewhere that soldiers called them "European Stovepipes". I guess the were not accepted well in the ranks. I still like mine due to the historical aspect of it.

 

[1867crete]

I'm at work now will post some more photos tonight when I get home

 

[Schwallanscher]

(...) Lol the 3pic shows a crown over a t or 7 rather hard to make out (...)

a prussian abnahmestempel (inspecor's mark) is (top to bottom) crown - initials of king (w for wilhelm etc) - year (4 digits) - 1st letter of inspector's name

we just now hat a problem that abnahmestempel were apllied before inspection

did the us buy surplus stocks of the infanteriegewehr 1809/39 (what you call potsdam musket) or new ones

 

[thomas aagaard]

By 1860 all Prussian infantry was armed with the M/1841 Leichtes Percussionsgewehr.
And they started to arm their dragoon regiments with carbine versions of it.
Only their pioneer units still had "minie rifles".

So I would think that the state owned arsenals had not been making new "muskets" for some time... being busy with producing the M/1841.

Naturally "surplus stocks" can be both very old weapons.. and weapons that had not actually been used at all.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

All of the M-1809/39, aka "Potsdam", muskets which were imported by the U.S. had been produced at least 20+ years prior to the American Civil War and were all in "used" condition. Although some were nearly new others were well worn. They were purchased for two reasons: One, they were a stop-gap measure to arm hundreds of thousands of soldiers quickly until new arms could be produced, and secondly to prevent the C.S.A. arms purchasing agents from acquiring them.
J.

 

[Schwallanscher]

By 1860 all Prussian infantry was armed with the M/1841 Leichtes Percussionsgewehr.
And they started to arm their dragoon regiments with carbine versions of it.
Only their pioneer units still had "minie rifles".

So I would think that the state owned arsenals had not been making new "muskets" for some time... being busy with producing the M/1841.

Naturally "surplus stocks" can be both very old weapons.. and weapons that had not actually been used at all.

sure, but as the crown was the only part of the mark that didn't change it might have been applied during production and not after testing (i honestly don't know). in this case 1867crete's musket never saw service in the prussian army as it wasn't tested.

 

[1867crete]

Post some photos of the complete musket.

Here's some more pictures of the musket. So what model are we looking at here? Thanks all for the input and conversation!

 

[originalrebelyell]

Looks like a 1809 converted to percussion, nice looking musket.

 

[James N.]

Here's some more pictures of the musket. So what model are we looking at here? Thanks all for the input and conversation!

You might think it strange that the middle band is steel or that it's an incorrect replacement part whereas the lower band, nosecap, and buttplate are all brass; but that's the same configuration I have on a French M.1777 Dragon Fusil (dragoon musket) I own. For some reason (strength probably) the middle bands were made of steel.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

The "Potsdam" we are discussing was most certainly proof tested, first in its original flint lock configuration, and then once again when it was Prussian arsenal altered to the current percussion configuration. It saw service in the Prussian army by virtue of the Prussian inventory number stamped on the butt plate. Because of the lack of any specific unit markings I would suspect it was held in reserve in a Prussian arsenal. Therefore when it was sold to a U.S. buyer it was most likely in near new condition. The only reason the original proof markings can't be seen in the photos is because of the current overall poor condition. By looking at the general wear I would suspect the heavily used condition came sometime after it went into civilian hands after the end of American Civil War.

The middle barrel band is actually brass, it just hasn't been polished up as much as the rest of the hardware. You can determine the actual brass color by enlarging the photo.
J.