Post war photo?

[lupaglupa]

What I want to know is - why does he have his buttons done so oddly?

 

[Rhea Cole]

The officer's collar insignia & single line of frogging on his sleeve indicate that he was a lieutenant.

The buckle is typically an officer's buckle, but is not necessarily definitive. The belts, buckles, swords & arms in photos are often photographer's props.

The bow tie was commonly worn by men on both sides. It would not be unusual for him to put on a tie for his sitting.

His top button is affixed following regulation. His uniform is anonymous, I.e. , no cuff or other mark indicating a particular state, etc.

During the Civil War period, it was both regulation & custom for men to button the top button of their outer garment. In photos, they often push their hats back because a high forehead was considered a mark of status & intelligence. Cultural things like that help date photos.

 

[Jonl51]

The officer's collar insignia & single line of frogging on his sleeve indicate that he was a lieutenant.

The buckle is typically an officer's buckle, but is not necessarily definitive. The belts, buckles, swords & arms in photos are often photographer's props.

The bow tie was commonly worn by men on both sides. It would not be unusual for him to put on a tie for his sitting.

His top button is affixed following regulation. His uniform is anonymous, I.e. , no cuff or other mark indicating a particular state, etc.

During the Civil War period, it was both regulation & custom for men to button the top button of their outer garment. In photos, they often push their hats back because a high forehead was considered a mark of status & intelligence. Cultural things like that help date photos.

Thank you for your insights. I can't make out anything on his collar. What do see for the insignia? Jonl51

 

[Jonl51]

What I want to know is - why does he have his buttons done so oddly?

Yes, I wondered the same thing. Even his vest buttons are mostly undone. This initially struck me as quite a casual pose
for an officer and the bow tie added to it.
Which is why I thought it might be post war.
However more knowledgeable members here have explained otherwise. Thank you. Jonl51

 

[Rhea Cole]

Thank you for your insights. I can't make out anything on his collar. What do see for the insignia? Jonl51

If you zoom the collar just above the end of the bow tie, there are is a rectangular shape. Field officers had stars in an oval of leaves insignia. The number of strings in the frogging on sleeves indicates rank. Late in the war, it is not unusual for officers to have very little in the way of rank showing.

 

[Package4]

Hi All,
Need help with this picture of a Confederate officer. Is this a post war picture or were bow ties worn as part of
the uniform at times? Also, can anyone tell
what type of uniform or rank this is, or any other information? Sorry only have this one
picture to go on. Thank you kindly. Jonl51
View attachment 378560
Image oriented by moderator.

Where did you find this photograph, we might be able to help with a little better resolution.

 

[Jonl51]

Where did you find this photograph, we might be able to help with a little better resolution.

This photo is shown on page 210 of "Confederate Belt Buckles & Plates" by Steve Mullinax. He was using the photo to illustrate a Virginia belt buckle which he believed the officer is wearing. I am trying
to identify the officer. Thank you! Jonl51

 

[Jonl51]

If you zoom the collar just above the end of the bow tie, there are is a rectangular shape. Field officers had stars in an oval of leaves insignia. The number of strings in the frogging on sleeves indicates rank. Late in the war, it is not unusual for officers to have very little in the way of rank showing.

Just tried it, not clear but I think I see a star
( no wreath ) on his collar. The braid pattern, also not clear seems to be multiple strands on his sleeve rather than one strand.

 

[Package4]

What I want to know is - why does he have his buttons done so oddly?

I surmise that he had a series of photographs taken and one was with his hand inserted inside the jacket, "Napoleon" style.

 

[Package4]

Just tried it, not clear but I think I see a star
( no wreath ) on his collar. The braid pattern, also not clear seems to be multiple strands on his sleeve rather than one strand.

View attachment 378854

I have the expanded version of the book and I also see what appears to be a star, he may very well be a major. I would see if you can find the owner of the picture, he is listed in the book, to see if you might get a more clear depiction. The owner might even have an ID, by this time. He lives in Purcellville, VA and is an avid collector of both letters and photographs.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Confederate General Earl Van Dorn has a very similar look to the man in this image. The bowtie, hairline & hair are very much alike. In both images, the sitter cocked his head to the side in a similar fashion. The image on the left of Van Dorn is of a general's coat with double row of buttons, velvet cuffs & collar. It would be very interesting if the image on the right was of Van Dorn before he was promoted to field rank. Side by side, the faces do have the same proportions. Just might be so....

 

[Jonl51]

I have the expanded version of the book and I also see what appears to be a star, he may very well be a major. I would see if you can find the owner of the picture, he is listed in the book, to see if you might get a more clear depiction. The owner might even have an ID, by this time. He lives in Purcellville, VA and is an avid collector of both letters and photographs.

Package4, Great suggestion, I will try to contact him. Thank you! Jonl51

I have the expanded version of the book and I also see what appears to be a star, he may very well be a major. I would see if you can find the owner of the picture, he is listed in the book, to see if you might get a more clear depiction. The owner might even have an ID, by this time. He lives in Purcellville, VA and is an avid collector of both letters and photographs.

He isn't a member at Civilwartalk by any chance? Thanks!

 

[Package4]

Package4, Great suggestion, I will try to contact him. Thank you! Jonl51

He isn't a member at Civilwartalk by any chance? Thanks!

I do not believe so, but he may have identified the picture in the past 30 years (since publication of Steve's book) or you might enlighten him on your hypothesis, either way a big win!

 

[lupaglupa]

I surmise that he had a series of photographs taken and one was with his hand inserted inside the jacket, "Napoleon" style.

That makes sense

 

[Jonl51]

I do not believe so, but he may have identified the picture in the past 30 years (since publication of Steve's book) or you might enlighten him on your hypothesis, either way a big win!

I have reached out to him so we will see. Thank you. Jonl51

 

[Package4]

I have reached out to him so we will see. Thank you. Jonl51

Please enlighten us when you have an answer or better scan!

 

[JulieWeathers]

Weren't (ex) Confederate banned from wearing their uniforms for quite some years after 1865? Much less having their photos made in uniform?
I recall reading an account that they were not even allowed to have CS buttons on their clothes unless they had black cloth covers sewed on them.

My vote is that it is an 1861 - 1865 photo.

They had to take the CS buttons off and replace them with plain brass buttons if I recall correctly. Note the famous portrait of Lee and his sons Brady took after the war.

 

[Package4]

They had to take the CS buttons off and replace them with plain brass buttons if I recall correctly. Note the famous portrait of Lee and his sons Brady took after the war.

Both sons have CS General Staff officer's buttons and Lee has Virginia buttons on both coat and vest, if my eyes do not fail me. There was a provision that one could wear no insignia of the South, though they could wear their uniforms and hats/kepis.

The Library of Congress has scanned these photographs at high rez and you can blow them up and look at the pictures in great detail.

 

[James N.]

Yes, I wondered the same thing. Even his vest buttons are mostly undone. This initially struck me as quite a casual pose
for an officer and the bow tie added to it.
Which is why I thought it might be post war.
However more knowledgeable members here have explained otherwise. Thank you. Jonl51

I've previously posted this unpreposing fellow on numerous occasions, but here he is again - unbelievable as it seems, this is likely a North Carolina Confederate officer! Note the obviously double-breasted military-style (frock?) coat he's wearing OPEN and with the collar turned down revealing its velvet lining, but covering any insignia of rank, over a civilian-style vest and another large bow tie. (There's also a tiny HOOK at the collar, indicating it was SUPPOSED to be worn closed and hooked at the throat.) He couldn't be too much more "casual" in appearance, likely the reason nobody recognized what he was and allowing me to pick him up CHEAP at the flea market where I found him! Yet he's posed in front of a distinctive backdrop well-known to collectors and photo researchers as the "lone pine tree" or "gabled house" backdrop associated with a series of photos of North Carolina Confederates. Soldiers of both sides in this era, especially the volunteers who made up the bulk of both armies, were known as military non-conformists who tended to dress whenever possible for comfort, and even as in the photo of the professional soldier Earl Van Dorn pictured above, often assumed a studied casualness in their attire.

 

[Package4]

View attachment 379499
I've previously posted this unpreposing fellow on numerous occasions, but here he is again - unbelievable as it seems, this is likely a North Carolina Confederate officer! Note the obviously double-breasted military-style (frock?) coat he's wearing OPEN and with the collar turned down revealing its velvet lining, but covering any insignia of rank, over a civilian-style vest and another large bow tie. (There's also a tiny HOOK at the collar, indicating it was SUPPOSED to be worn closed and hooked at the throat.) He couldn't be too much more "casual" in appearance, likely the reason nobody recognized what he was and allowing me to pick him up CHEAP at the flea market where I found him! Yet he's posed in front of a distinctive backdrop well-known to collectors and photo researchers as the "lone pine tree" or "gabled house" backdrop associated with a series of photos of North Carolina Confederates. Soldiers of both sides in this era, especially the volunteers who made up the bulk of both armies, were known as military non-conformists who tended to dress whenever possible for comfort, and even as in the photo of the professional soldier Earl Van Dorn pictured above, often assumed a studied casualness in their attire.

Great catch! There is one button visible, I'm sure you've done your best to blow it up? After the states were readmitted, citizens had the rights of all US and could wear whatever they desired. Based upon his cherub and portly appearance this photo might have been post admittance. Wasn't North Carolina readmitted quite quickly?