Picture Identification Help

[rickvox79]

I wanted to see if I could get some help identifying a relative in a picture. My grandmother gave me a stack of old documents and pictures from her side of the family. One of the pictures was a man in Union uniform but I'm not 100% which relative it is and she didn't know either. I think I may be able to narrow it down by the uniform possibly but I would need someone that has a better eye for judging rank by uniform.

I believe it to be either my 3rd generation great-grandfather John A Scudder or my 3rd generation great-uncle Charles Van Trees. John Scudder's wife was formerly Helen Van Trees so Charles would have been his brother-in-law. The original picture that was given to me had two scanned pictures, one of Helen from the 1860's and one of the unidentified man in uniform, so I'm guessing it could be either one. John Scudder was a surgeon in the 65th Indiana Regiment while Charles Van Trees was a Captain in the 6th Indiana Regiment. Would a surgeon wear the type uniform in this picture or would it appear to be a Captain's uniform or lastly is there just not enough difference in the uniforms to be able to tell between the two?

Charles' brother Henry Van Trees was a 1st Lt in the 6th Indiana but I have several pictures of him so I can say for certain it is not him. Thanks for any help that I can get! It's been a big mystery for me for a while now. Here is the picture:

 

[Cumpston1862]

Probably my own shortcomings in undertsanding but did you say that have the original picture or just scans of it? There could be some clues if you have the original picture on the back. That could date it by if it has picture tax stamp which mean mid 1864 to the end of the war. Or if it has the photogrpaher's name on the back you might be able to place where/when it was taken. And than it could be blank...

The man in the picture is wearing a junior officer's frock coat. That would mean 2nd Lt through captain. The shoulder boards are the key. A 2nd Lt shoulder board would be the shoulder board with nothing inside of it. A 1st Lt. would be a single bar and a captain would be two bars side by side. See the examples below.

The man in the picture looks to be wearing shoulder boards with 1 bar indicating a 1st Lt but it is difficult to tell from the picture you posted. Medical Surgeon would have had an MS centered in the board...see below. But it depends if your ancestor had or wore the regualtion straps when he got his picture taken.

 

[rickvox79]

Probably my own shortcomings in undertsanding but did you say that have the original picture or just scans of it? There could be some clues if you have the original picture on the back. That could date it by if it has picture tax stamp which mean mid 1864 to the end of the war. Or if it has the photogrpaher's name on the back you might be able to place where/when it was taken. And than it could be blank...

The man in the picture is wearing a junior officer's frock coat. That would mean 2nd Lt through captain. The shoulder boards are the key. A 2nd Lt shoulder board would be the shoulder board with nothing inside of it. A 1st Lt. would be a single bar and a captain would be two bars side by side. See the examples below.

The man in the picture looks to be wearing shoulder boards with 1 bar indicating a 1st Lt but it is difficult to tell from the picture you posted. Medical Surgeon would have had an MS centered in the board...see below. But it depends if your ancestor had or wore the regualtion straps when he got his picture taken.


View attachment 21717

View attachment 21716

Thank you for the info Cumpston. Sorry I didn't mention it in my first post but I just have a scanned copy and not the original. The scanned copy was printed out on a plain sheet of paper so I can't see the back of the original and the scan didn't have anything written on it. I wish I could get my hands on the original, like you said its too hard to tell what's on his shoulders for sure with the quality on this scanned version.

 

[Cumpston1862]

Your're welcome. I wish there was more I could do. Hate to see these pictures go nameless/faceless. At lease you have it narrowed down.

Looking at the shoulder strap on his right shoulder it looks like a single bar. So I would say this man is a 1st Lt. but yeah it is a little less than ideal to work with. And he does have the narrow stripe on his trousers indicating he is an officer.

Just some friendly tips on Civil War soldier images...from my own experience. Usually a soldier would get his picture taken right after enlisting...someplace they were stationary...after a promotion or right after getting home from the war. I think you can rule out this picture as being taken at the start of the war. The man looks quite accoustomed to being in uniform with his coat only partially buttoned and his demeaner. I would guess this as one of the other three possibilities. A detailed search of the two mens military records may help further narrow the possibilites.

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

I wanted to see if I could get some help identifying a relative in a picture. My grandmother gave me a stack of old documents and pictures from her side of the family. One of the pictures was a man in Union uniform but I'm not 100% which relative it is and she didn't know either. I think I may be able to narrow it down by the uniform possibly but I would need someone that has a better eye for judging rank by uniform.

I believe it to be either my 3rd generation great-grandfather John A Scudder or my 3rd generation great-uncle Charles Van Trees. John Scudder's wife was formerly Helen Van Trees so Charles would have been his brother-in-law. The original picture that was given to me had two scanned pictures, one of Helen from the 1860's and one of the unidentified man in uniform, so I'm guessing it could be either one. John Scudder was a surgeon in the 65th Indiana Regiment while Charles Van Trees was a Captain in the 6th Indiana Regiment. Would a surgeon wear the type uniform in this picture or would it appear to be a Captain's uniform or lastly is there just not enough difference in the uniforms to be able to tell between the two?

Charles' brother Henry Van Trees was a 1st Lt in the 6th Indiana but I have several pictures of him so I can say for certain it is not him. Thanks for any help that I can get! It's been a big mystery for me for a while now. Here is the picture:

View attachment 21707

Hope this may help, along with the info from Cumpston :
- Report of the Adjutant General of the State of Indiana

Henry E. VanTrees

Residence Washington IN;
Enlisted on 9/20/1861 as a Sergeant.

On 9/20/1861 he mustered into "E" Co. IN 6th Infantry
He was Mustered Out on 9/22/1864 at Chattanooga, TN
Promotions:
* 2nd Lieut 5/17/1862
* 1st Lieut 8/31/1863
Other Information:
Member of GAR Post # 372 (Sun City) in Sun City, KS
After the War he lived in Sun City, KS

..............................................................




Charles R. Vantrees

Residence Washington IN;
Enlisted on 9/20/1861 as a Captain.

On 9/20/1861 he was commissioned into "E" Co. IN 6th Infantry
He Resigned on 3/2/1863

.............................................................



John A. Scudder

Residence Washington IN;
Enlisted on 11/5/1862 as a Asst Surgeon.

On 11/11/1862 he was commissioned into Field & Staff IN 65th Infantry
He Resigned on 2/20/1864

 

[James N.]

... John Scudder was a surgeon in the 65th Indiana Regiment while Charles Van Trees was a Captain in the 6th Indiana Regiment. Would a surgeon wear the type uniform in this picture or would it appear to be a Captain's uniform or lastly is there just not enough difference in the uniforms to be able to tell between the two?

There were two types of medical officers: Surgeons and Assistant Surgeons; the first were considered Staff and Field Officers and had the rank of Major - the second were Company-Grade Officers with the usual rank of Captain. S&F Officers wore double-breasted frock coats; CG Officers wore single-breasted coats. IF a Medical officer ( which I think highly unlikely ), this is only an Assistant Surgeon. I think you can bet safely on this being Van Trees, likely as a lieutenant.

 

[rickvox79]

There were two types of medical officers: Surgeons and Assistant Surgeons; the first were considered Staff and Field Officers and had the rank of Major - the second were Company-Grade Officers with the usual rank of Captain. S&F Officers wore double-breasted frock coats; CG Officers wore single-breasted coats. IF a Medical officer ( which I think highly unlikely ), this is only an Assistant Surgeon. I think you can bet safely on this being Van Trees, likely as a lieutenant.

Actually he was an Assistant Surgeon from what I have found. Looks like East Tennessee confirmed it with his post:

John A. Scudder

Residence Washington IN;
Enlisted on 11/5/1862 as a Asst Surgeon.

On 11/11/1862 he was commissioned into Field & Staff IN 65th Infantry
He Resigned on 2/20/1864

Sorry, I should have mentioned that earlier when I said he was a surgeon and been more detailed that he was an assistant surgeon. So that may make it more complicated as to which one he is.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=van trees&GSfn=henry&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=83364817&df=all&

The above link is Henry Van Trees, he was the one that eventually mustered out as a 1st Lt. I don't think the pictures show the same person although the pictures on that site are when he is older obviously. His brother was Charles Van Trees and was a Captain in the 6th, so that's kind of why I believe it is either Charles Van Trees or John Scudder. Interestingly enough I found where Henry died in an old soldiers home in California. A sad way to go but an all to common ending for many old Civil War veterans I'm sure.

 

[noman]

John A Scudder http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=37518211

his descendnats can join either SUVCW or DUVCW