Periodic, Meandering, Guilt

[kevikens]

Every once in a while, usually when visiting a Civil War site or reading an especially absorbing book on the war, I start reflecting on matters that leave me with a sense of guilt that I can't quite shake. I think some readers may share the thought that we sometimes do things that we do because we enjoy doing them but that deep down inside we are a bit uncomfortable with. We do them anyway and can readily rationalize our behavior with any number of arguments, some of which we know full well are bogus. For example I like to hunt. I enjoy the crisp Autumn mornings in the fields or woods, the sudden rocketing of a pheasant from the brush, the springing of buck from his bed with little more than a bounding white flag behind him. I can argue with the best of the anti hunters that we need to control the populations, it puts food on the table, not too frequently in my case, but deep down inside I am troubled by the fact that I am killing wildlife to enjoy my hobby.

So why write about this in a Civil War setting? Born and raised in the North I had no difficulty seeing the boys in blue as the good guys, Lincoln as a secular saint and the North as righteously triumphant. I always felt good when I got to the part of the book when the Union won a battle and correspondingly upset when the Confederates won a battle. I like reading books about the war set in 1865 rather than 1862. I prefer the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Rally Round the Flag to Dixie or the Bonnie Blur Flag. I am glad the North won the war and I am glad the Union prevailed, mostly.

But deep down inside I am troubled by my willingness to have supported the Union cause in crushing the Confederacy because in that deep down inside of me I am not sure the Southern people were not right and justified in attempting to withdraw from the Union to establish an independent confederation. Of course this feeling is not based on their attempt to preserve slavery but rather on the foundation of any people's right to set up the government of their choice. Yes, I can come up with any number of rational arguments on why secession had to be opposed, constitutional ones, patriotic ones, economic ones, probably even a few religious ones but just as I can marshal arguments to the anti hunters as to why hunting is ok (mainly because I LIKE to hunt) I sometimes feel that there is somehow, for some reason, something not quite right about a willingness to kill a couple hundred thousand fellow Americans because their vision of America was different than mine. I cannot dispel that angst.

So when I read about that war, or talk about it here, I guess I am glad the North won and the Union prevailed, mostly.

 

[Mike Serpa]

You sound like a rational human being to me.

 

[dlofting]

Very thoughtful post. I sometimes feel guilty that I enjoy reading about a war that killed over 700,000 people.....but then I think that my not reading about the war wouldn't change anything. It's all in the past.

 

[OpnCoronet]

I sometimes feel that there is somehow, for some reason, something not quite right about a willingness to kill a couple hundred thousand fellow Americans because their vision of America was different than mine. I cannot dispel that angst.

So when I read about that war, or talk about it here, I guess I am glad the North won and the Union prevailed, mostly.

It is good, from time to time, to sit and quietly contemplate the fallen state of the human nature. The good that I would, I do not and the bad I would not, I do.


But, in this specific case, I can say that I too contemplate the CW, but I have enough confidence(imperfect as it is) that the war was necessary(from both north and south views) and the results in the broad scope of the world and history, it ended well and my bad feelings are more akin to sadness than guilt.

 

[DanF]

am not sure the Southern people were not right and justified in attempting to withdraw from the Union to establish an independent confederation.

That they may have been right to want to withdraw does not equal them being right in the manner they chose to do it. They had more than one potential and probably legal avenues to accomplish tbeir goal. Instead of pursuing them they chose insurrection and war with their fellow Americans.

rather on the foundation of any people's right to set up the government of their choice.

The "people" already set up a govt. Then a distinct minority of them tried to destroy that Govt. For the purpose of insuring that over 4 million people were kept from having any chance at self determination for themselves.

 

[kevikens]

It is good, from time to time, to sit and quietly contemplate the fallen state of the human nature. The good that I would, I do not and the bad I would not, I do.


But, in this specific case, I can say that I too contemplate the CW, but I have enough confidence(imperfect as it is) that the war was necessary(from both north and south views) and the results in the broad scope of the world and history, it ended well and my bad feelings are more akin to sadness than guilt.

That may well be as when I taught the Civil War to my high school students I was always overcome by the most profound sense of sadness. I never had that feeling with any other period of history.

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

Every once in a while, usually when visiting a Civil War site or reading an especially absorbing book on the war, I start reflecting on matters that leave me with a sense of guilt that I can't quite shake. I think some readers may share the thought that we sometimes do things that we do because we enjoy doing them but that deep down inside we are a bit uncomfortable with. We do them anyway and can readily rationalize our behavior with any number of arguments, some of which we know full well are bogus. For example I like to hunt. I enjoy the crisp Autumn mornings in the fields or woods, the sudden rocketing of a pheasant from the brush, the springing of buck from his bed with little more than a bounding white flag behind him. I can argue with the best of the anti hunters that we need to control the populations, it puts food on the table, not too frequently in my case, but deep down inside I am troubled by the fact that I am killing wildlife to enjoy my hobby.

So why write about this in a Civil War setting? Born and raised in the North I had no difficulty seeing the boys in blue as the good guys, Lincoln as a secular saint and the North as righteously triumphant. I always felt good when I got to the part of the book when the Union won a battle and correspondingly upset when the Confederates won a battle. I like reading books about the war set in 1865 rather than 1862. I prefer the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Rally Round the Flag to Dixie or the Bonnie Blur Flag. I am glad the North won the war and I am glad the Union prevailed, mostly.

But deep down inside I am troubled by my willingness to have supported the Union cause in crushing the Confederacy because in that deep down inside of me I am not sure the Southern people were not right and justified in attempting to withdraw from the Union to establish an independent confederation. Of course this feeling is not based on their attempt to preserve slavery but rather on the foundation of any people's right to set up the government of their choice. Yes, I can come up with any number of rational arguments on why secession had to be opposed, constitutional ones, patriotic ones, economic ones, probably even a few religious ones but just as I can marshal arguments to the anti hunters as to why hunting is ok (mainly because I LIKE to hunt) I sometimes feel that there is somehow, for some reason, something not quite right about a willingness to kill a couple hundred thousand fellow Americans because their vision of America was different than mine. I cannot dispel that angst.

So when I read about that war, or talk about it here, I guess I am glad the North won and the Union prevailed, mostly.

Being an east Tennessean, with relatives on both sides, several which made the ultimate sacrifice, I know where you're coming from.

 

[TerryB]

Take comfort in the fact that we have evolved. We would never fight that war today. The issue would be resolved peacefully, even if that meant letting the South go. So you are an evolved modern who isn't comfortable with killing your fellow countrymen. Congratulate yourself for that. People were always wanting to go to war over something in the 19th century. I think our modern sensibilities also tell us we didn't really need to go to war with Great Britain, which is one of the reasons the War for Independence is not as popular as the ACW is today. It's just too far away, and, dude!, they wore powdered wigs back then! Even George Washington.

 

[favedave]

My family on my Mom's side is Southern born and bred. The earliest 'southerner' lived in Jamestown and one was in the House of Burgesses about the time the very first African captives were bought off a Dutch merchantman in 1619. They were slaveholders, and many served in the ANV from private to general. One, the youngest made a wrong turn while trying to join up with his family, and ended up as a drummer-boy in the AoP. He spent the rest of his life attending annual meetings of the Grand Army of the Republic.

My dad's family were all Yankees in the classic sense, they arrived in Plymouth Plantation in 1630 aboard the Arabella with Puritan leader John Winthrop, author of the City On A Hill. The concept became central to the United States' conception of itself as an exceptional and exemplary nation. Col Benjamin Church was the militia leader who quashed King Phillip's War,(1675 to 1678) the deadliest war per capita ever fought in North America, and personally captured native chieftain, Metacom, AKA King Philip and had his body dismembered and his head put on a pike for all to see. In the Civil War, family members from Massachusetts to Iowa served in the Union Army.

As an American History teacher I always have had a sense of sadness at what had to be sacrificed in order to bring our nation into being. But I've never felt guilt over the choices my ancestors made.

 

[DanF]

But I've never felt guilt over the choices my ancestors made.

Same here, my ancestors were who they were, I am who I am.

 

[Allie]

There's more than one way to be wrong and more than one way to be right. I am completely glad that slavery was abolished and not at all sure that the perpetrators (which included several of my direct ancestors) got kicked around enough to balance the scales of justice on that score. I'm also glad that America isn't divided into Actual America and That Third World Country run by those nitwits elected by the Confederacy. I think several aspects of subsequent history such as ww2 might have turned out badly if America had been divided, not to mention that people that incompetent probably wouldn't even be able to supply the populace of 21st century America with toilet paper.

I also believe that Sherman was a monster who didn't fully appreciate the fact that every time I look at records of a beautiful place and then learn it's not there because he personally is a (insert sobriquet) lovely gentleman, I want to spit on his grave. Not to mention the human aspect, just the historical, artistic aspect is bad enough. We're all Americans today, the wounds of the Civil War are mostly healed, and the precious things he destroyed are still gone. I also believe that regardless of what legal justification you get up to, the principle of self-government died permanently and forever when Lincoln declared that the states were not really participants in self-government but were serfs tied forever to their previous agreement. It's sad that the founders of this country who conceived bla bla bla all that stuff from the Gettysburg address failed so badly, because the truth, proved by force of arms, is that if you live here, you're stuck with the Federal government and they will shoot you if you try to separate. Glad we cleared that up.

It's not one or the other. You don't have to cheer for your team, this is not a football game. It's okay to admit that terrible things done by the side you prefer to have won were perfectly terrible and not necessarily justified by the need to win.

If you're lying about what you believe to be the truth of history, you should feel guilty - for lying, today. There's no need to feel guilty for the acts of other people, whether you're related to them or not.

 

[Nathanb1]

My family on my Mom's side is Southern born and bred. The earliest 'southerner' lived in Jamestown and one was in the House of Burgesses about the time the very first African captives were bought off a Dutch merchantman in 1619. They were slaveholders, and many served in the ANV from private to general. One, the youngest made a wrong turn while trying to join up with his family, and ended up as a drummer-boy in the AoP. He spent the rest of his life attending annual meetings of the Grand Army of the Republic.

My dad's family were all Yankees in the classic sense, they arrived in Plymouth Plantation in 1630 aboard the Arabella with Puritan leader John Winthrop, author of the City On A Hill. The concept became central to the United States' conception of itself as an exceptional and exemplary nation. Col Benjamin Church was the militia leader who quashed King Phillip's War,(1675 to 1678) the deadliest war per capita ever fought in North America, and personally captured native chieftain, Metacom, AKA King Philip and had his body dismembered and his head put on a pike for all to see. In the Civil War, family members from Massachusetts to Iowa served in the Union Army.

As an American History teacher I always have had a sense of sadness at what had to be sacrificed in order to bring our nation into being. But I've never felt guilt over the choices my ancestors made.

Ah.....we sound like twins separated at birth. Same here. Cheering for both sides in a way....and booing bad stuff along with it.

 

[Northern Light]

Your introspective post touches a cord within me, for I have often pondered the same types of moral questions. What draws us to things that we think are wrong or bad on a certain level? Does that make us bad people? Does it make us hypocritical or does it just make us human, with a few warts on a basically decent personality?
Like you, there are things that I like to do that I struggle to justify. One thing is horse racing. In our little town, when the summer fair rolls around, they have a couple of harness races. We usually go if we are around. We take a ten dollar bill each and we pick the horses we like and make out bets. While my husband reads the stats. on each horse and bets accordingly, I pick out a name I like or if there is a grey horse in the race, I always pick that one. When the tenner is gone or the race is over, we stop betting. If we are lucky, we cover our costs.
I know this sounds innocuous enough, and we see it as an evening out, like going to the movies, but I struggle with a few moral issues. Are the horses being treated well? Isn't gambling a destructive vice that does great harm to many families? Should I be actively engaging in this activity?
I rationalize this with reminding myself that I do not buy lottery tickets, or support draws or raffles. I remind myself that the horses are bred to run and that I know that their welfare is closely monitored by the Provincial Racing Association and the SPCA, and I know some of the owners and respect their integrity. Still there is that little niggle of guilt that stirs in the back of my mind. BUT, I love the horses and love to watch them run, so I go, sitting firmly on that niggle, which I might add is only slightly less comfortable that the wooden benches on which we sit! Penance, perhaps?
As far as the Civil War, or any war, I think it is important that we study and remember and honour those who gave their lives to support the cause which they chose, however mistaken we feel that maybe. By understanding the past, we can understand why we do what we do in the present. As a teacher, I am sure that you must be very cognisant of this fact. As Dan F points out, diplomacy has become the preferred choice of combat for most nations today. The stakes are just too high to pick up your gun and go shot it out.

I guess the bottom line of this wordy post is that when the Civil War started, not unlike the First World War, neither side anticipated the eventual outcome of the next four years. Neither side could possible have conceived the slaughter and destruction that were to come, because if they had, they might have thought a little harder before they fired a single gun. War is a destructive force like a tornado or hurricane, that takes on a life of its own when it starts, and no one can tell where it will touch and who it will harm. it is a lesson that all human need to learn.

 

[brass napoleon]

But deep down inside I am troubled by my willingness to have supported the Union cause in crushing the Confederacy because in that deep down inside of me I am not sure the Southern people were not right and justified in attempting to withdraw from the Union to establish an independent confederation.

While I also believe in a right to rebellion, I think a lot of the problem is that 150 years after the fact we still don't recognize who the true rebel heroes were: the tens of thousands of freedom seekers who risked everything and braved the great unknown to "withdraw" from slavery and achieve their own independence, not to mention the thousands of "rebels" who helped them. While I can honor the valor and heroism of the Confederate soldiers in fighting for their homeland, I can honor the valor, heroism, and cause of the men and women who escaped from that homeland to achieve an independence that didn't depend on depriving others of theirs. And although it's very sad that their actions helped precipitate a war that killed hundreds of thousands, it's also comforting to know that their actions helped achieve freedom for millions.

 

[BillO]

Virginia finished both revolutions that we have had so far. She picked a side and did the best she could winding up with a record of 1 win and 1 loss. No guilt, no shame. I ride with Virginia.

 

[John Winn]

I've never really understood collective or cross-generational guilt. I'm only guilty of the things I've done/not done in those times when I shouldn't have/should have done otherwise. That's it. What folks who've been dead for a hundred years or more did to one another is not on my shoulders.

I think some of what the ancestors did that we now consider wrongs can also be somewhat forgiven because they lived in different times with different mores and customs. I'd bet in the future (if we survive that long) we'll be thought of as having committed sins we don't now see. That's a different thread though.

 

[lakertaker]

Interesting thoughts. In regard to hunting, native people used to reconcile the killing with ceremonies that would bring re-birth and resurrection to their sustenance. Modern sportsman do that by involvement with organizations that promote habitat enhancement and saving breeding grounds, i.e., Ducks Unlimited, North American Elk Foundation, Pheasants Forever, etc. Still, there is that guilt factor that us hunters must reconcile. The older I get, the less often I pull the trigger. Sometimes, I don't even bring my shotgun. The dog doesn't seem to mind, and the wife is happy that she doesn't have to cook anything wild.

Bringing it back to the Civil War, I think some of us find interest in examining a fundamental failure of compromise that had such horrific consequences. It happened in OUR country, and it really wasn't that long ago!

 

[DanF]

I think some of what the ancestors did that we now consider wrongs can also be somewhat forgiven because they lived in different times with different mores and customs.

The problem I have with this view is that the slaveholxers themselves admitted that slavery itself had previously been viewed as an evil by the founders and many of them were sons and grandsons of the founders generation.

Their change of view is clearly, by their own statements the result of self interest.

They were likewise very aware of the strength of anti slavery sentiment not only in the western culture in general but in their own nation. After all they complained about it endlessly.

I don't see where a case can be made that tbey were somehow unaware that the vast majority of people did see slavery as wrong.

Common sense tells me they would not have spent as much effort as tbey did in defending the institution if it was not under widespread and well known attack.

 

[Drew]

I'd bet in the future (if we survive that long) we'll be thought of as having committed sins we don't now see.

I've said this before, John Winn and I think you are right. We are the 22nd century's slave whippers. Maybe because we drive gas guzzlers, maybe because we coddle our children too much. The 22nd century is going to vote without us.

 

[southern blue]

I try my best to stay out of the politics of that time.