Organizing Andersonville POWs

debwallsmith

Corporal
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
Prisoners at Andersonville were organized into Squads and Messes. Does anyone know how many men were in a Mess and how many messes made up a squad. In some of the testimony at Wirz trial, it appears that there may have been as many as 90 men in a mess and one of the witnesses states that there were 3 messes (or 270) in a "division." However, the Andersonville ledgers have Squad numbers from 1 to 7.
 
Prisoners at Andersonville were organized into Squads and Messes. Does anyone know how many men were in a Mess and how many messes made up a squad. In some of the testimony at Wirz trial, it appears that there may have been as many as 90 men in a mess and one of the witnesses states that there were 3 messes (or 270) in a "division." However, the Andersonville ledgers have Squad numbers from 1 to 7.
90 men to a mess and three messes to a squad. They were sometimes known by letters rather than numbers, particularly after leaving Camp Sumter. Later arrivals were sometimes assigned to lower numbered squads and messes to fill in the numbers as the men who were originally assigned to them died. Higher numbered messes and squads were also sometimes reassigned to the lower numbered ones. These designations were used for food distribution and to take a roll call, among other things. A "sergeant of the mess" was responsible for collecting the day's rations at the food wagons and bringing it back to the men in his mess and distributing it as fairly as he could. Some guys would reportedly assume the identities of prisoners who died in order to collect rations for two different people.

If you search online for a paper called "NCO POWs at Andersonville Prison" by Fidel Gomez, he goes into the question of squads and messes at some length starting on p. 5, and - be still my heart! - he cites his sources, although his version is slightly different from the one I've always come across. Not sure how much I trust his sources, though, one of whom is John Ransom.

Have fun! I'm back at Andersonville in June.
 
90 men to a mess and three messes to a squad. They were sometimes known by letters rather than numbers, particularly after leaving Camp Sumter. Later arrivals were sometimes assigned to lower numbered squads and messes to fill in the numbers as the men who were originally assigned to them died. Higher numbered messes and squads were also sometimes reassigned to the lower numbered ones. These designations were used for food distribution and to take a roll call, among other things. A "sergeant of the mess" was responsible for collecting the day's rations at the food wagons and bringing it back to the men in his mess and distributing it as fairly as he could. Some guys would reportedly assume the identities of prisoners who died in order to collect rations for two different people.

If you search online for a paper called "NCO POWs at Andersonville Prison" by Fidel Gomez, he goes into the question of squads and messes at some length starting on p. 5, and - be still my heart! - he cites his sources, although his version is slightly different from the one I've always come across. Not sure how much I trust his sources, though, one of whom is John Ransom.

Have fun! I'm back at Andersonville in June.
That's what I thought but wanted confirmation. Enjoy Andersonville.
 
Prisoners at Andersonville were organized into Squads and Messes. Does anyone know how many men were in a Mess and how many messes made up a squad. In some of the testimony at Wirz trial, it appears that there may have been as many as 90 men in a mess and one of the witnesses states that there were 3 messes (or 270) in a "division." However, the Andersonville ledgers have Squad numbers from 1 to 7.
I'm shocked you didn't start by tagging @Gary Morgan !
 
90 men to a mess and three messes to a squad. They were sometimes known by letters rather than numbers, particularly after leaving Camp Sumter. Later arrivals were sometimes assigned to lower numbered squads and messes to fill in the numbers as the men who were originally assigned to them died. Higher numbered messes and squads were also sometimes reassigned to the lower numbered ones. These designations were used for food distribution and to take a roll call, among other things. A "sergeant of the mess" was responsible for collecting the day's rations at the food wagons and bringing it back to the men in his mess and distributing it as fairly as he could. Some guys would reportedly assume the identities of prisoners who died in order to collect rations for two different people.

If you search online for a paper called "NCO POWs at Andersonville Prison" by Fidel Gomez, he goes into the question of squads and messes at some length starting on p. 5, and - be still my heart! - he cites his sources, although his version is slightly different from the one I've always come across. Not sure how much I trust his sources, though, one of whom is John Ransom.

Have fun! I'm back at Andersonville in June.
You certainly know your stuff about Andersonville!

Is there an online listing of all the men who were there?

Especially if organized by State and regiment?

Thanks
 
You certainly know your stuff about Andersonville!

Is there an online listing of all the men who were there?

Especially if organized by State and regiment?

Thanks

When I was trying to sort out the question of why there were seven names for the men hanged as raiders but only six men hanged, I was given a research grant that enabled me to travel up and down the east coast, reading original diaries and talking to experts on different aspects of the prison. I spent a lot of time in the library at the POW Museum at Andersonville National Historic Site.

The short answer to your question is "No." There is a pretty comprehensive list of all of the men who died there (See earlier discussions on the "Atwater List") - "only" 460 of the 12,920 graves at the National cemetery are marked "Unknown." But even that is full of misspellings, typos, incorrect regiments, etc. There was even one case where there was a scramble just before the dedication of one of the state monuments in the cemetery because one of the guys on the dedication committee was supposedly dead and buried in one of the graves. Luckily they noticed and removed the flawed grave marker just in the nick of time!

It gets worse with the survivors - the arrivals list, if it still exists, has been lost. There were the same problems with misheard and misspelled names, men who were there under aliases (if you were a captured deserter, it was not in your best interests to give them your right name), and the database is complicated by descendants who INSISTED that their ancestor was at Andersonville and nagged the compilers into including them, even though there's no evidence that they were ever actually there. The database will say "reported to have died" or "reported to have been" at Andersonville but there's no actual proof that this was the case

(For Memorial Day one year, I decided to trace 100 men from Mass who were "reported to have died at Andersonville" and see if I could figure out what actually happened to them. At least 40 of the names on the list were men who'd died at other prisons. A lot of people, hearing that their family member/ancestor died as a POW automatically assumed that they had to have been at Andersonville because that's the only Confederate prison camp that they ever heard of, but there were actually over 200 POW camps known to have existed during the Civil War.)

There are compiled lists of men by state in some of the monument dedication programs, but not all states have monuments at Andersonville. Sometimes you can find a "Roll of Honor" online that lists some of the men from various states who died at the various prisons. There is an online database that someone compiled several years ago that you can search by name or by regiment, but not by state. It's at http://civilwarprisoners.com/search.php?database=andersonville but be warned that it's kind of persnickety. Don't abbreviate the state names and be sure to put "st" "nd" or "th" after the ordinal number. Even then, sometimes I won't be able to find someone if I include his regiment, but he'll pop up if I search by just his name. Still, it's better than nothing.

Hope this helps.
 
Add "Enjoy Andersonville" to the list of things you'll only ever hear/read on CivilWarTalk.
Probably. @debwallsmith and I have known each other, at least virtually, for several years and met up at Andersonville once (although we had to leave town to get dinner - there's still really nowhere to eat at Andersonville). Our areas of interest overlap and we tend to be studying the same men at different times in their captivity - I write about the first prison most of them were held at and she writes about the second. Researching these places is our idea of fun.
 
There's much to enjoy at Andersonville. I spent a lovely week in residence there meeting with the NPS staff and some of the locals, taking photographs, wandering the site.

I've always kind of wished that they'd leave a guide to the local wildlife that you are likely to encounter in the historic site at the information desk. There's quite a list and I've encountered a lot of different critters, especially when I'm in there alone after the park has closed and before it opens in the morning. I generally start each morning when I'm down there by texting my ornithologically inclined daughter the "daily bird report."

(Visiting speakers and scholars are put up in the historic site's "guest residence," which is about 40 yards from the stockade site. It is a VERY interesting place to spend the night.)
 
90 men to a mess and three messes to a squad. They were sometimes known by letters rather than numbers, particularly after leaving Camp Sumter. Later arrivals were sometimes assigned to lower numbered squads and messes to fill in the numbers as the men who were originally assigned to them died. Higher numbered messes and squads were also sometimes reassigned to the lower numbered ones. These designations were used for food distribution and to take a roll call, among other things. A "sergeant of the mess" was responsible for collecting the day's rations at the food wagons and bringing it back to the men in his mess and distributing it as fairly as he could. Some guys would reportedly assume the identities of prisoners who died in order to collect rations for two different people.

If you search online for a paper called "NCO POWs at Andersonville Prison" by Fidel Gomez, he goes into the question of squads and messes at some length starting on p. 5, and - be still my heart! - he cites his sources, although his version is slightly different from the one I've always come across. Not sure how much I trust his sources, though, one of whom is John Ransom.

Have fun! I'm back at Andersonville in June.
Hey! I have another Andersonville question for you. Do you know if, in the cemetery records, there are dates reported for the burials? I've been playing with the Millen burial data and there are a few dates associated with specific burials but their spotty as are the "plot" identifiers (Trench and burial number) but it is possible to narrow down some of the death dates to a timespan of a couple of days. It would be interesting if the same could be done for the descendants of the "unknowns" if they had a better idea of the location of their loved one.
 
Hey! I have another Andersonville question for you. Do you know if, in the cemetery records, there are dates reported for the burials? I've been playing with the Millen burial data and there are a few dates associated with specific burials but their spotty as are the "plot" identifiers (Trench and burial number) but it is possible to narrow down some of the death dates to a timespan of a couple of days. It would be interesting if the same could be done for the descendants of the "unknowns" if they had a better idea of the location of their loved one.
The original death register is more or less in chronological order of death, from Adam Swarner's death at the end of February, 1864 to Knud Hansen's at the end of April, 1865. The first Unknown is in grave number 61 (I happen to know that because 61 is my "lucky" number and I took a walk down the early rows to figure out when the first unknown occurs the last time I was down there.)

The problem comes when there are multiple unknowns buried the same day. The worst day there are 127 men buried, and I can't remember how many of them are unknowns. Add to that the fact that if a man died late in the day, then his body was laid out by the south gate and not collected until the following day. This happened with the raiders - it's well documented by diaries that they were hanged on the evening of July 11, but in the Register of Deaths, they are listed under July 12th's deaths. Add to that the "Reported to Have Died's" who actually aren't there at all. For Memorial Day one year, I decided to mark the occasion by taking 100 "Reported to have died" soldiers from Massachusetts and decided to see if I could figure out what happened to them - a full 40% were actually buried at other National Cemeteries - the men survived long enough to leave Andersonville, only to die at Millen or Florence or Salisbury. But the comrade who reported their death said they last saw them at Andersonville, say, at the end of August, so that's what got recorded in the company's muster roll. Surprisingly, quite a few of them actually WERE apparently buried at Andersonville, but with a slightly misspelled name or the wrong regiment number or state abbreviations.

And then there's the guy who was on the list of men returning to the prison site to dedicate a state monument and there was a big scramble to get his name off of one of the graves before he got there, less he see it and become unduly distressed. Clearly someone was buried there - it just wasn't him.

Then there are the 5 or so bodies that were found in the stockade site years after the war had ended, frequently after a torrential rain. Two were found when they went to grade the site for one of the monuments (Michigan, maybe?) to make sure that the monument stood straight. These bodies were, of course, relocated to the National Cemetery.

Theoretically, it should be possible that if you have an account that a man died on a particular day, and there's only one "Unknown" in the register of deaths for that date, you would think that you could safely say that that unknown was him, but it's just not that easy.

Nor are there enough physical remains in the cemetery to do DNA testing. I talked to an archaeologist from Tallahassee who did a ground penetrating radar survey of the cemetery and stockade site and he said that no bodies remain.

I'm heading back down to Georgia June 12th. Do you need anything while I'm down there?
 

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