One Rare Bird Or Not?

[UCVRelics]

Here is what I believe is a pre CW or early CW Eagle Flag Pole Finial. The reason for my belief is that this one is constructed out of 5 different pieces of very thin brass that appears to be hand hammered and then gilded. Ive had this one for awhile along with several other but those were solid cast. Just the construction makes be think its pre CW. Any and all thoughts on it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[major bill]

Do we have any flag pole finial experts on the forum? I am sure some people are experts on these but I have never seen much information about them. Is there a book about these?

 

[Banjo Pete]

Beautiful piece ! Seems like an awfully delicate way to put together something which is apt to get bashed around a lot.

No helpful ideas on authenticity but it's a very nice piece of work with beautiful detailing.

 

[major bill]

There is a view or perhaps a story that the style of the American Eagle tells us something. The story goes like this; if the eagle is facing the arrows it was made during war time. If the eagle faces the olive branches it was made during peace. This I surmise is a myth.

I have seen the eagle face right, left, up and down. Towards the arrow, towards the olive branches. I have seen the eagle looking high low and in between. I do not see any reason for the eagle to be depicted in any of these ways.

Has anyone else seen this looking toward the arrow thing? If so could they post where they seen it?

 

[UCVRelics]

I have never heard that before so I'm interested to see what comes up.

 

[mofederal]

This is the first one I have ever seen close up. It is a nice looking piece. The best of luck on finding out any information on it.

 

[lelliott19]

It's beautiful!!! Thanks for sharing it @ucvrelics.com !
Amazing craftsmanship and delicate detail for a piece that was as @Banjo Pete said likely to be banged around. I suppose the color bearer had to be extra careful not to bump into anything.

Colonel W: Dude - you just rammed our brand new finial into Pvt X's head.
Pvt X: No blood....I'm fine.
Colonel W: X, you idiot, it's not your head I'm worried about.
Color Bearer: The eagle is fine......just a slightly bent wing and his head is facing the olive branch.
Colonel W: The war's not over. Quick bend it around so its facing the arrows.
Color Bearer: There.....better now sir?

 

[major bill]

These flag finials came in various forms. Why did one unit use an eagle and one use a spear point?

 

[Patrick H]

I'm no expert, but it occurs to me that it might not be the finial of a military unit. It might simply be a brass eagle finial for more or less general purpose use. I have no idea how old it might be. No arrows. No olive branch. It might even be a foreign finial. Whatever it is, it's a very nice piece.

 

[Patrick H]

The Internet (and we all know how reliable a source it is) tells me that the eagle in the presidential seal has been redesigned a half dozen times. Most recently, President Truman had it redesigned in 1945 to depict the head facing the olive branch. The change was intended to be permanent, and was intended to emphasize peace. Another variation in different depictions is that the wings will point upward, as in the current presidential seal, or downward, as in the finial in this thread.

 

[Patrick H]

Reading about this a little further, I see on a web site devoted to the US Flag, that eagle finials are not recommended for outdoor use at all, because the flag might get tangled up on the eagle's wings or beak. It also notes that different branches of the service have different specifications about the use of an eagle and how it should appear. An image search turns up many eagle designs--some nearly identical to this one and some quite different. All of which means I'm no closer to being able to give a helpful answer.

 

[major bill]

A while back I went to see all the Michigan battle flags. The flags were taken off the flag poles so the storage room has over 100 finials in storage. The flags are interesting but so too are the 100 plus finials. Sadly the poles were all cut short when the battle flags were put into glass cases in the Capital building and all the flag poles are now bobbed.

 

[zburkett]

Back to the original post, boy do I love a good mystery.

 

[Package4]

Reading about this a little further, I see on a web site devoted to the US Flag, that eagle finials are not recommended for outdoor use at all, because the flag might get tangled up on the eagle's wings or beak. It also notes that different branches of the service have different specifications about the use of an eagle and how it should appear. An image search turns up many eagle designs--some nearly identical to this one and some quite different. All of which means I'm no closer to being able to give a helpful answer.

There is no doubt that an eagle finial would be detrimental to a flag if it were on a stationary pole. I can't tell you how many flags we go through here at the house with our 30' pole. When a flag becomes wet and the wind really kicks up an eagle finial will destroy a flag quickly. We are back to a brass ball finial.

I have two guidon flag poles from a NY Regiment, both with eagles, I would imagine that since the flags were most likely furled most of the time, the regimental field flag finials were immaterial, as to their composition. I would proffer that a post or HQ flag would be a different matter.

You have a very fine and desirable piece!

 

[UCVRelics]

Thank you. It just intrigues me has to the way it is made. I was really hoping to find out more as to the time period it was made as I can't find a makers mark or any other markings on it at all. It has a great patina and still retains some of the gilding.

 

[Cpl. Smith]

Cool piece

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Next time any of you make it to Charleston, visit the campus of The Citadel.
Report back if you find a single eagle on a building or a pole that ISN'T "eyes on the arrow", and it will quickly be changed.

 

[Northern Light]

I don't know if you do it there, but here in Canada and in Britain, retired regimental flags were often hung from the ceiling in churches where they would slowly disintegrate. I wonder if this finial might have been for decorative purposes in side a building, as it seems a bit fragile for daily use.
.

 

[WJC]

There is a view or perhaps a story that the style of the American Eagle tells us something. The story goes like this; if the eagle is facing the arrows it was made during war time. If the eagle faces the olive branches it was made during peace. This I surmise is a myth.

My understanding is that the issue was whether the eagle was facing the arrows (choosing war) or the olive branch (choosing peace). I have heard that this was questioned by Native Americans, bringing about the change, but it seems more likely one of the early leaders (all of whom were steeped in symbolism) decided the change.

 

[Flyingace]

Do we have any flag pole finial experts on the forum? I am sure some people are experts on these but I have never seen much information about them. Is there a book about these?

I know a bit about flag staff finials, toppers, and the like.
Dennis Wynn from Michigan is likely the foremost expert in this area. He has been studying flag staff finials for decades. Dennis received a grant, and had a team of researchers put together a paper entitled, The American Flag Staff Eagle Project". I was told the paper was easily available, but cannot find it. If anyone has a copy, I would gladly pay for a reprint or a copy.