NOT Another Stonewall-at-Gettysburg Thread?

Joined
Jun 20, 2012
Location
Pacific Northwest
Why yes- yes it is...
Suppose that Stonewall survived his wound at Chancellorsville and returned to active service in time for Gettysburg; further suppose Lee doesn't divide the army into three corps, but keeps it in two corps; further suppose the timelines are still the same.

Jackson, weary from his injury and stressed from the sustained operations tempo, pushes his men into Pennsylvania, but then suffers the same mental lapse he incurred on the Peninsula, falling into inaction and failing to follow up on reports of Federal troops in the town. Feuding with AP Hill, who is again under arrest, and with Ewell, who is now on a short leash, his corps is scattered to the west and north; Early isn't able to rush south to flank the Federals, who are able to maintain their defensive positions against desultory attacks by parts of Jackson corps- Heth's division is pushed back, Hill's division suffers from poor command and control, and Ewell's division is too far from the action to return in time to engage. The Union I and XI Corps are not routed, and maintain good order as they withdraw to holding positions on Cemetery Ridge and Culp's Hill due to the superior numbers of engaged troops. Day 1 ends with the two corps in good condition on excellent ground, with numerous Federal corps arriving throughout the night.

Lee begins Day 2 ignorant of Jackson's mental condition, and of the state of his corps. He issues orders to flank the Federal right around Culp's Hill while Longstreet makes his attack to their left. The attacks against Culp's Hill are poorly coordinated and face determined opposition from the strong positions, backed by well-placed and manned artillery. The lack of leadership is telling as the brigades are decimated; on the opposite side, Longstreet's men run into much stronger Federal forces due to the presence of the I and XI Corps intact on the other side of the battlefield; the results are more decisive, with the Confederates pushed back with heavy losses and the Federal lines damaged, but intact and not as scattered as in the real timeline. Command and control is more quickly restored, and Sedgwick's corps is left intact as a strategic reserve instead of being dispatched to plug holes in the line.

Day 3, Lee has realized Jackson is not able to command with his usual vigor, but has limited options- relieving him, even temporarily, would have a highly demoralizing impact on his men. He rides over to make an inspirational speech, the horse is spooked by a bird, throws him, and Lee is killed.

Okay- maybe not that, but I've never seen those purely random chances that history turns upon show up in one of these, so why not...

Lee opts to roll the dice in the middle, figuring that the lack of leadership on Jackson's end of the field doesn't really matter. Jackson joins Longstreet in protesting, but Lee- feeling pressure to assert himself with his subordinates- overrules them and orders the charge. He has few options and he knows it, but he also lacks solid information on the Federal lines; to him, this isn't as risky as it truly is. The charge is thrown back, with higher casualties due to the increased cohesion of the Federal lines, but Meade doesn't counter-attack; he knows Lee still has plenty of artillery and he has only the VI Corps to deploy as an attacking force, so he waits. Lee moves out the next day, but Meade has scouts out and pursues aggressively with Sedgwick, counting on him to deal with the bulk of Lee's army. The aggressive pursuit by the AOP succeeds in trapping the ANV on the banks of the Rappahanock, where a large portion of the army is destroyed. Lee escapes with one corps and remnants of a second, but loses most of his artillery and wagons to the pursuit. Returning to Virginia, he attempts to rebuild the army but news of the defeat, coupled with the loss of Vicksburg, has a chilling effect on the Confederacy. Meanwhile, Meade takes the army south in pursuit of Lee and takes up position opposite him, well-armed and supplied and flush with reinforcements. Confident now because of their victory, the AOP pushes Lee aggressively...
 
Meade is distracted by a visit to the mistress he has taken in South Central Pennsylvania and misses the courier's message informing him that General Buford has fallen ill with too much rum and can't find the AoP's flank. Sedgwick becomes confused without guidance and orders his Corps off in search of Buford.

Despite Jackson's wound-induced dementia, Lee orders the attack on Day 2 against the Union flanks and Jackson's mere presence inspires his Corps to cross the field toward Cemetery Ridge ahead of schedule. The loss of manpower and overwhelming Confederate Masse de Manoeuvre upsets the Union Command's lack of coordinated effort and Cemetery Ridge is taken. Confederate forces roll up the flanks in both directions.

Abraham Lincoln is heard 85 miles south, moaning about what the country will think.

Are we having fun yet?
 
The Union troops retreat south to the Pipe Creek line and everything starts all over again. Jackson the Zombie meets his final end on Call of Duty, much to the relief of his troops who are nauseated by the smell of his decomposing corpse (thanks, Eric!). Abraham Lincoln delivers his address in Union Mills, Maryland, thus sparing generations of future students from having to memorize the Gettysburg Address. All rumors basely spread by Lt. Drew regarding General John Buford and spirituous liquors turn out to be false, but at the end of the Battle of Pipe Creek, he is still trying to remove the dust from his uniform.

[I may stop laughing next week.]
 
Drew: I suppose it depends on if we are here to talk about what could happen from a Jackson performing below expectations, or to be silly.


As someone who specifically wanted to see a Jackson-at-Gettysburg running with this, I've a few questions just to make sure I follow (I'm a bit of a detail nut, if these seem trivial):

Lee has not reorganized his army into three corps. Alright. So . . .

1) What division is Ewell commanding?
2) Similarly, is Heth in command of his historical division?
3) I assume from lack of comment to the contrary that Anderson is as useless as historically. Is this correct?
4) What does Lee do in regards to the events of day 1? I mean, is Jackson able to appear "fine" when Lee arrives, even if its only temporarily? Is Lee unable to believe Jackson could be in this bad a state?

I'd certainly love to build from this premise, though I might say it's a bit generous to the AotP. Just making comments for now, though.
 
Drew: I suppose it depends on if we are here to talk about what could happen from a Jackson performing below expectations, or to be silly.

It's OK to be a detail nut, Elennsar. I was being silly, yes.

It's hard enough to figure out what actually was without gaming the "what ifs." I'm still working on the former.
 
1) What division is Ewell commanding?
2) Similarly, is Heth in command of his historical division?
3) I assume from lack of comment to the contrary that Anderson is as useless as historically. Is this correct?
4) What does Lee do in regards to the events of day 1? I mean, is Jackson able to appear "fine" when Lee arrives, even if its only temporarily? Is Lee unable to believe Jackson could be in this bad a state?

The unit assignments are virtually unchanged since Chancellorsville. Jackson begins the march eagerly, performing as expected, but upon crossing into PA lapses into Peninsula Jackson and seems to lose focus; here, his notorious security works against him as his commanders are left pretty much adrift, with no overall sense of the plan- the addition of his lethargic command and control allows them to spread apart, unable to mutually reinforce one another. He also fails to follow up on- or recognize the importance of- many reports of Federal activity his men provide.

Lee visits Jackson after the chaos of the meeting engagement, taking Jackson's performance as a reflection of his commanders' inexperience rather than their commander's lack of judgment. Lee is unable- or unwilling- to recognize that Jackson is not completely in control of the situation, and after some words of encouragement and some general instructions for the next day, he leaves. Perhaps he considers the situation on his ride back to his own HQ, but the fact is there isn't anyone who can take over for Jackson at this stage, and to relieve him would be a hugely demoralizing event- especially in the face of the enemy. So he's stuck with Jackson.

I thought of another option- Jackson, still not completely himself, advocates for a flanking march to the Federals' rear in a near-repeat of his move at Chancellorsville. Lee, not wishing to surrender the initiative to the Federals and also remembering the move at Chancellorsville, supports this- unfortunately, Jackson's march is spotted and reported, takes far too long to execute, is under fire from the hilltops, and eventually runs into the men of the VI Corps- rested, fed, and fully-equipped for battle.

As to the charge that this scenario is too kind to the AOP, I reply without hesitation, "Meh" :D
All of the other Jackson at G'Burg scenarios are equally unbalanced to the ANV; I think a rosy outcome is historically possible, especially if the I and XI Corps aren't destroyed, if Reynolds isn't killed, and if they're able to withdraw and occupy the high ground in good order- this scenario specifically assumes Early doesn't arrive to flank them from the north, which was pretty much the last straw on Day 1. Another possibility is the destruction of a good part of Jackson's corps on Day 1, as he has divisions scattered throughout PA unable to come together in time to support each other and/or flank the Federals.
 
I can't resist.

Lee keeps Stuart with him and uses Robertson's cavalry to screen his advance and see what the enemy is doing. Judson Kilpatrick easily whups him and then dallies with the ladies in several different eastern Pennsylvania towns, thus creating several generations of Anderson Cooper lookalikes (yech), but allowing Lee, Jackson, Longstreet, et al. to advance unscathed while John Buford sends his uniforms to the cleaners per his new commander's orders (Meade. Yes, Meade.)

Lee arrives at Gettysburg well ahead of Union forces and sends John B. Hood up on LRT for a weenie roast. The fire gets out of hand, but frightens Union troops advancing from the southeast, who believe the ANV is three times its actual size, thanks to intelligence reports from Alan Pinkerton. Meanwhile, Jackson, Longstreet, and Lee decide to play a prank on Richard Ewell and steal his wooden leg. Lewis Armistead takes the leg and demonstrates the technique used to whack Jubal Early on the head at West Point, thus creating the first casualty in the Gettysburg Campaign.

Custer, totally ignoring the advice of Wesley Merritt and any orders from any other commanders of higher rank than the boy wonder, arrives and picks a fight with a well-rested Stuart and his pet pit bull, Wade Hampton. Hampton shows Custer the real meaning of "Last Stand" while Merritt laughs so hard he falls off his horse and is disabled for the rest of the campaign.

Lee greets a new division commander who is brought in to replace Early....a man Lee has never met, but whose name he has heard. Yeah, THAT GUY, all the way from Tennessee. THAT GUY immediately gets into a fight with Jackson over regulations and lops Jackson's head off. With things literally "going south," Lee decides to ignore the foo-foo and go back south, because Mrs. Lee is knitting so many socks they're overflowing Richmond and causing a fire hazard. Lee promotes THAT GUY to Corps Commander because, frankly, THAT GUY scares him s*&%less....and they all head home to Old Virginny...except THAT GUY, because he has no earthly idea where he is and gets lost in the mountains of Pennsylvania (see link to: Civil War Skeletons of Officer and Horse Found Near Boyerstown, March 1, 2015, Boyerstown News)
 
Okay, as silly goes, I don't think it would be possible to top Nate's post there. And I'm not that anti-silly, I just really would like to see the serious bits talked about too.

@Shadow9216 I agree to a point, I'm just not sure where I draw the line between "Sure, this could make a big difference." and "that sounds like a lot working in the Union's favor on the offense" - Reynolds or no, an attack sounds like no kind of fun.

Trying to sort out what role Reynolds (and his corps) would play is the part bedeviling me in being more certain. I know its a what if, but going from "not as badly hurt as OTL" - well, even with an orderly retreat some of 1st Corps is still going to be pretty worn down. Eleventh Corps is probably benefiting the most, but its a small corps anyway as far a difference in Union numbers.

I don't think its impossible for the ANV to get a hell of a pounding, and if troops from 4th & 7th Corps (or other such formations that can be moved) reinforce an ANV where 3rd and 5th Corps aren't as hurt as OTL on top of 1st and 11th, the post-river crossing bit is going to get ugly if the Army of the Potomac can keep the pressure on.
 
Don't resist Nate- I'm happy to have the thread go sideways...with much respect to Elennsar, whose idea this was, I find the Jackson Obsession all too "ripe" for humor :wink:

Well, we need to have some silliness occasionally. Note the way I worked in many of our "myths" surrounding Gettysburg that crop up ad infinitum around here.....:) I'd still like to see an honestly worded "what if" like Elennsar suggests, but this was just right for watching the Duke-UNC game on Saturday night!
 
Okay, as silly goes, I don't think it would be possible to top Nate's post there. And I'm not that anti-silly, I just really would like to see the serious bits talked about too.

Hey, I can make it sillier. :) I forgot to have Buford trapped in the Seminary cupola when the door's slammed shut by a sudden breeze...and Reynolds standing on his saddle to help him climb down over the side....

Well, thanks to all those folks over my years as a moderator who put forth all those theories. :) Questions are awesome. I love questions. Opinions stated as fact are something else altogether.
 
It depends on which units of Jackson show up- if everybody's pretty much there, then yeah- Reynolds doesn't make a difference. But if half of the corps is so far away they never get the message, or don't get there until later that night- now you're talking a much different outcome; OTL, 2 brigades of cavalry held up Heth's division. Then two Federal corps held up Heth, Pender, and Anderson's divisions, finally crumbling under pressure from Ewell's division. But if Ewell doesn't show up, and Anderson is late, and so on- now you've got a couple of Confederate divisions being fed in piecemeal against the two corps.
 
Well, we need to have some silliness occasionally. Note the way I worked in many of our "myths" surrounding Gettysburg that crop up ad infinitum around here.....:smile: I'd still like to see an honestly worded "what if" like Elennsar suggests, but this was just right for watching the Duke-UNC game on Saturday night!
Unfortunately for the Confederates, Buster Kilrain hurls boulders as big as elephants from the top of LRT, absolutely crushing Hood's men. Ripping an oak from the ground, he swings it as a mighty club and sweeps McClaws from the battlefield. Whistling "Danny Boy", he goes all "Lord of the Dance" on the remaining forces on the Union right, cementing his place in history.
 
Somehow, the 35th Maine (The Lost Regiment - a fortunately outright science fiction series, but it does involve the fictional regiment being in the army from Antietam on) series ought to be worked in, if only to demonstrate the depths to which Chamberlain homage can go without actually naming him

Have 'em personally bag Jackson, maybe?.
 
Last edited:
I can't resist.

Lee keeps Stuart with him and uses Robertson's cavalry to screen his advance and see what the enemy is doing. Judson Kilpatrick easily whups him and then dallies with the ladies in several different eastern Pennsylvania towns, thus creating several generations of Anderson Cooper lookalikes (yech), but allowing Lee, Jackson, Longstreet, et al. to advance unscathed while John Buford sends his uniforms to the cleaners per his new commander's orders (Meade. Yes, Meade.)

Lee arrives at Gettysburg well ahead of Union forces and sends John B. Hood up on LRT for a weenie roast. The fire gets out of hand, but frightens Union troops advancing from the southeast, who believe the ANV is three times its actual size, thanks to intelligence reports from Alan Pinkerton. Meanwhile, Jackson, Longstreet, and Lee decide to play a prank on Richard Ewell and steal his wooden leg. Lewis Armistead takes the leg and demonstrates the technique used to whack Jubal Early on the head at West Point, thus creating the first casualty in the Gettysburg Campaign.

Custer, totally ignoring the advice of Wesley Merritt and any orders from any other commanders of higher rank than the boy wonder, arrives and picks a fight with a well-rested Stuart and his pet pit bull, Wade Hampton. Hampton shows Custer the real meaning of "Last Stand" while Merritt laughs so hard he falls off his horse and is disabled for the rest of the campaign.

Lee greets a new division commander who is brought in to replace Early....a man Lee has never met, but whose name he has heard. Yeah, THAT GUY, all the way from Tennessee. THAT GUY immediately gets into a fight with Jackson over regulations and lops Jackson's head off. With things literally "going south," Lee decides to ignore the foo-foo and go back south, because Mrs. Lee is knitting so many socks they're overflowing Richmond and causing a fire hazard. Lee promotes THAT GUY to Corps Commander because, frankly, THAT GUY scares him s*&%less....and they all head home to Old Virginny...except THAT GUY, because he has no earthly idea where he is and gets lost in the mountains of Pennsylvania (see link to: Civil War Skeletons of Officer and Horse Found Near Boyerstown, March 1, 2015, Boyerstown News)

You had me with the weenie roast and the fire of LRT . . . and nailed it with THAT GUY at the end. There's a legend that THAT GUY became a pow-pow doctor, selling shoo-fly pies laced with ginseng, and on nights of the full moon when the wind is still, they say you can hear the echoes of his victims screaming in dismay.
 
On the slightly more serious side I have never thought of Jackson as some sort of magic bullet whose mere presence would have turned the tide of the battle. There are way too many variables.
 
thus creating several generations of Anderson Cooper lookalikes (yech), but allowing

Since were allowed to be silly...
Do the lookalikes wear a suit as Cooper does when he is in studio or the child-size black tee shirt he wears when he is covering a battle...?
 
Lets see what would have happened if Phil Kerney lived, or Reynolds, or Johnston, or any other "named general"? It's all speculation and wishfull thinking. It is what it is, what happened, happened.
 
Lets see what would have happened if Phil Kerney lived, or Reynolds, or Johnstone, or any other "named general"? It's all speculation and wishfull thinking. It is what it is, what happened, happened.
Thanks for the insight. Here's a couple from me:
1) We have dozens of "what-if threads" which represent Confederate fantasy- now we have a Union one.
2) The thread is- you may have noted- increasingly nonsensical, as so many of these premises are.
3) Counter-factuals (what-ifs) can be a useful analytic tool in assessing performance, especially when evaluating where things went wrong. Post-event debriefs often include a session gaming possible outcomes if X had happened instead of Y. The topic or subject matter is largely irrelevant, it's an exercise in critical thinking and strategic analysis. I find that a nice diversion from the grim reality of my usual analysis, YMMV.
 

Learn About Us
About CivilWarTalk
Contact the Webmaster
Meet the Staff
Link to CivilWarTalk
Join Our Community
Register
Browse Forums
View Today's Discussions
Search the Forum
Get Help
FAQ
Student Guide
Forum Rules & Etiquette
Copyright / DMCA

     Contact Us CivilwarTalk on Facebook CivilWarTalk on YouTube CivilWarTalk on Twitter RSS Feed

Bringing the American Civil War and More to Life.
© 1999 - , CIVILWARTALK, LLC - Site Version 10.0

SlaveryTalk.com - SecessionTalk.com - CivilWarTalk.com - ReconstructionTalk.com
Back
Top