Ammo New Fragments from Gettysburg

[Virginia Dave]

Last week I purchased a few more shell fragments from a very reputable collector. I was told they were from Gettysburg and I was given the name of the digger that recovered them around 1960. Decided it was time to downsize and get rid of a little clutter.

I believe some are fragment from where the fuse was inserted. Others I have no idea. However, I like the pentagon shaped one. If anyone has any thoughts about these I would love your comments.

Thanks in advance.

 

[PapaReb]

Other than being from Gettysburg, any info on what part of the battlefield they were recovered from? Just curious if you could determine if they were fired from Union or Confederate batteries

 

[Virginia Dave]

Other than being from Gettysburg, any info on what part of the battlefield they were recovered from? Just curious if you could determine if they were fired from Union or Confederate batteries

Good question I will see what I can find out.

 

[upton j.]

Nice.

 

[UCVRelics]

Nice Ones. Back in the my days of hunting the battlefields I always loved finding the ones with the fuse threads. I hate the spot they were found may be lost to time.

 

[Tom Hughes]

The top left fragment is a nose fragment to a James shell.

 

[Seduzal]

The top left fragment is a nose fragment to a James shell.

Tom what's a James shell?

 

[Tom Hughes]

Tom what's a James shell?

It's an elongated shell that was fired from a rifled cannon called a James rifle. It's hard to describe but the two types of James shells are the "birdcage" type and the Type II which had "fin" type protrusions - all of which secured the sabot to the shell.
The James shell proved to not be reliable.

 

[PapaReb]

Thanks for the explanation....had never heard of them before.

 

[upton j.]

I wonder if the 2 threaded pcs. are from shenkl or Parrott shells?

 

[byron ed]

These fragments are quite deteriorated; marginally recognizable really. imho any potential for much material value (i.e. $$) was lost when they were first dug; without having documentation of that event. Also consider this may be the third of fourth time these are "new fragments" to somebody, so caveat emptor.

Still, there's a bit of technical value for the purpose of comparative metrics as we've noticed here. And no one can deny the personal value even these really rough artifacts might hold, much as a collection of sea shells might hold.

 

[UCVRelics]

The James shell was manufactured in the Federal arsenals following the invention of Charles James. The pattern utilized a hollow caged cavity (referred to as a "birdcage", this is not a contemporary term) covered by a thin sleeve of lead, tin, and canvass, the thin sabot would expand into the rifling, and then be discharged after the projectile left the bore. This meant that there would always be flying metal debris from the sabot, which could be a problem for forward troops.

James shell without sabot.

James shell with sabot.

Confederate version.
Confederate arsenals adapting some design features from the Federal patterns designed by Charles James. The Confederate pattern was proportionately longer and more narrow. The design was not successful, few were produced, and the top completely separated from the bottom on all battlefield fired examples recovered.

 

[PapaReb]

So would the top picture be an example of a bird cage shell as was mentioned earlier by Tom Hughes?

 

[upton j.]

Does anyone know what the majority of shells fired at Gettysburg were ?

 

[Tom Hughes]

So would the top picture be an example of a bird cage shell as was mentioned earlier by Tom Hughes?

It's impossible to tell if it was a birdcage style from the nose frag shown above. But James shells are certainly interesting projectiles whether whole or fragmented. Even without the provenance, it's an historical piece of fired ordinance from the civil war.

 

[PapaReb]

I was actually referring to the top picture in ucvrelics post....but do you have any pictures of the different types of James shells?

 

[Seduzal]

It's an elongated shell that was fired from a rifled cannon called a James rifle. It's hard to describe but the two types of James shells are the "birdcage" type and the Type II which had "fin" type protrusions - all of which secured the sabot to the shell.
The James shell proved to not be reliable.

.

Thank you Tom for your reply. And also to @ucvrelics for that excellent description of the James shells. Learned something new today. Enjoyed it.

 

[UCVRelics]

So would the top picture be an example of a bird cage shell as was mentioned earlier by Tom Hughes?

Yes they are both the same type shell James pattern 1, the top one shows the cage which is what the tin or canvas was wrapped around the second show the wrap in place and the last is the CS version.

 

[UCVRelics]

I was actually referring to the top picture in ucvrelics post....but do you have any pictures of the different types of James shells?

There were 2 types the one I posted above the the 1st pattern. Below is the 2nd or Type 2 which replaced earlier hollow caged cavity with a flanged base with tapered tail, covered by a thick lead sabot, referred to as Type II. This eliminated the automatic blowout of the sabot from the hollow cavity design, but left a very heavy sabot that tended to significantly distort on firing, consequently this pattern was not particularly successful either.

 

[Virginia Dave]

Tom what's a James shell?

Complements of @John Winn
James rifle (often referred to as type II or "true" James rifles)
• Bronze or (rarely) steel
• 915 lb tube & 900 lb. carriage = 1,815 lbs total
• 3.8 in. bore & 14 lb. projectile; James shell used; 0.75 pound powder charge.
• 1,530 yard range
• Later-produced guns that were manufactured new (about 400 made); none were made
after 1862.
• Not widely used once Parrott and ordnance rifles became available although one Union
battery had them at Gettysburg.