Uniforms New Cadet Needs a (uniform) clue.

[BCS1973]

I was glad to find this forum and it's threads. For 30 years I've been a history buff as time permits and read about C.W history. Within the last few weeks I was able to re-discover some family history I was shown in my youth. It's a photo that apparently skipped a whole generation, but my grandfather showed me as a pre-teen. After years of on and of searching, I got the copy below as well as a summary of the family history minus most of the back up information. It took a little digging, but I'm 95% sure that the soldier on the left is my great-great grandfather Patrick. The man on the right is his brother James (I'm also 99% sure the photo negative was flipped like so many others by looking at buttons and fly's). The limited notes I've found from our family historian (deceased for over a decade) have some information that doesn't quite add up. It may be that the history we have of this man is a composite of a few namesakes.

Here's the rub, his surname is a fairly common one in Ireland before he came over. There's many variations on the spelling, however. His/ours is the rarest of the bunch. that said we're not sure if he could read or write/spell. Based on geography, I've (hopefully) narrowed his assignment down to three potential units. My reasoning below:

1) There is a Patrick with the same spelling as the decedents in my line who would have enlisted in the 2nd NJ Infantry in 1861. He was later transferred to the 15th NJ for his final 3 mo's of service. I've found his grave site in Jersey (marked as 15th NJ) much closer to NYC than Philly. For the record, my great great grandfather's wife is certainly buried in Philly, but she outlived Patrick by over 2 decades.

2) The Patrick that our family historian said he is, would have been in the 95th PA and either enlisted or was drafted in Jan 64. That would have been Goslin's Zouaves, but the trousers and jacket don't match. I haven't given up on it though because he would have come in so late that it's likely he didn't get the Zouave Uniform. I've also found a photo of a soldier from the 72nd PA zouave unit in a similar uniform and similar kepi. That soldier died near "The Angle" at G-burg. What's slightly odd about the Patrick in the 95th is not only is his surname misspelled on his card that is blank except for a references another soldier listed as Jacob with the surname spelled differently. Considering the fact that there was a huge amount of Irish males named Patrick...maybe Jacob was his middle name??? I have no reason to believe that Patrick #2 is the same as Patrick #1, but from January 64 to Sept 64 both would have been part of 1st division of VI corps, so that makes tracking their movements a little easier. Allegedly this Patrick was wounded at Ceder creek and released in December 64. His record does not mention this and has him mustering out with company in July of 65.

3) This option may be a stretch. Same pronunciation, but again different spelling. 115th PA enlisted 1861 (iirc). There's both a Patrick and a James listed in the same company of this regiment. James is listed as "Not Accounted For". Patrick show's up on the Gettysburg Pennsylvania War memorial in company B of the 115, with again a slightly different spelling. Interestingly enough, there is a "Thomas" listed on the 115th company B plate with the same potential misspelling. I don't know what became of James, but there is evidence that his middle name could've been Thomas.

My Ramblings aside, are there any opinions on the uniformed soldier regarding unit? 95th PA circa 1864, 2nd NJ Circa 1861, 115th PA 1861? thanks in advance. Oh yeah, looks like the jacket has 10 buttons and slots. Does that lend a clue? I included photo as we have it as well as a lower res mirrored version as I believe it should've been.

 

[RedRover]

Just an observation, nothing solid, but the chaps' uniform jacket looks alot like that of the US Army's "Invalid Corps" later "Veteran Reserve Corps" from 1863-65, with shoulder straps, dark trim, and evidently buttons on the collar.

That said, the chap in the photo has ten buttons on the breast by the looks of it, while the VRC jackets normally had 12.

 

[Old Man]

While the uniform in question closely resembles that worn by the Veteran Reserve Corps, I believe it is more of a gray worn by the 2nd New Jersey Infantry in 1861.

 

[Old Man]

Welcome to the forum BCS1973!

 

[JOHN42768]

I was glad to find this forum and it's threads. For 30 years I've been a history buff as time permits and read about C.W history. Within the last few weeks I was able to re-discover some family history I was shown in my youth. It's a photo that apparently skipped a whole generation, but my grandfather showed me as a pre-teen. After years of on and of searching, I got the copy below as well as a summary of the family history minus most of the back up information. It took a little digging, but I'm 95% sure that the soldier on the left is my great-great grandfather Patrick. The man on the right is his brother James (I'm also 99% sure the photo negative was flipped like so many others by looking at buttons and fly's). The limited notes I've found from our family historian (deceased for over a decade) have some information that doesn't quite add up. It may be that the history we have of this man is a composite of a few namesakes.

Here's the rub, his surname is a fairly common one in Ireland before he came over. There's many variations on the spelling, however. His/ours is the rarest of the bunch. that said we're not sure if he could read or write/spell. Based on geography, I've (hopefully) narrowed his assignment down to three potential units. My reasoning below:

1) There is a Patrick with the same spelling as the decedents in my line who would have enlisted in the 2nd NJ Infantry in 1861. He was later transferred to the 15th NJ for his final 3 mo's of service. I've found his grave site in Jersey (marked as 15th NJ) much closer to NYC than Philly. For the record, my great great grandfather's wife is certainly buried in Philly, but she outlived Patrick by over 2 decades.

2) The Patrick that our family historian said he is, would have been in the 95th PA and either enlisted or was drafted in Jan 64. That would have been Goslin's Zouaves, but the trousers and jacket don't match. I haven't given up on it though because he would have come in so late that it's likely he didn't get the Zouave Uniform. I've also found a photo of a soldier from the 72nd PA zouave unit in a similar uniform and similar kepi. That soldier died near "The Angle" at G-burg. What's slightly odd about the Patrick in the 95th is not only is his surname misspelled on his card that is blank except for a references another soldier listed as Jacob with the surname spelled differently. Considering the fact that there was a huge amount of Irish males named Patrick...maybe Jacob was his middle name??? I have no reason to believe that Patrick #2 is the same as Patrick #1, but from January 64 to Sept 64 both would have been part of 1st division of VI corps, so that makes tracking their movements a little easier. Allegedly this Patrick was wounded at Ceder creek and released in December 64. His record does not mention this and has him mustering out with company in July of 65.

3) This option may be a stretch. Same pronunciation, but again different spelling. 115th PA enlisted 1861 (iirc). There's both a Patrick and a James listed in the same company of this regiment. James is listed as "Not Accounted For". Patrick show's up on the Gettysburg Pennsylvania War memorial in company B of the 115, with again a slightly different spelling. Interestingly enough, there is a "Thomas" listed on the 115th company B plate with the same potential misspelling. I don't know what became of James, but there is evidence that his middle name could've been Thomas.

My Ramblings aside, are there any opinions on the uniformed soldier regarding unit? 95th PA circa 1864, 2nd NJ Circa 1861, 115th PA 1861? thanks in advance. Oh yeah, looks like the jacket has 10 buttons and slots. Does that lend a clue? I included photo as we have it as well as a lower res mirrored version as I believe it should've been.

View attachment 462338

View attachment 462339

Welcome, enjoy

 

[BCS1973]

Just an observation, nothing solid, but the chaps' uniform jacket looks alot like that of the US Army's "Invalid Corps" later "Veteran Reserve Corps" from 1863-65, with shoulder straps, dark trim, and evidently buttons on the collar.

View attachment 462367
View attachment 462368
View attachment 462369

That said, the chap in the photo has ten buttons on the breast by the looks of it, while the VRC jackets normally had 12.

The ten buttons puzzle me, it's not something I've seen on any other jackets.

 

[BCS1973]

While the uniform in question closely resembles that worn by the Veteran Reserve Corps, I believe it is more of a gray worn by the 2nd New Jersey Infantry in 1861.

Thanks, you wouldn't have any reference photos of the 2nd or links to them by chance?

 

[Package4]

While the uniform in question closely resembles that worn by the Veteran Reserve Corps, I believe it is more of a gray worn by the 2nd New Jersey Infantry in 1861.

There is no source that I am aware that shows the 2nd NJ (three month) or the 2nd NJ (3 year) ever wore a gray jacket. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd wore light blue trowsers, dark blue frock coats and a shako of the pattern of the 71st New York State Militia regiment in 1858.

The state had a commission appointed by Governor Olden to comply with the Militia law passed in 1860 which would require militia to conform to the uniform regulations of the US Army. When the 1st, 2nd and 3rd NJ 3 month regiments left for Washington DC they were uniformed as close to the US Army regulations as possible, they were seen wearing "dark blue frock coat, light blue pants trimmed with a white cord, blue fatigue cap and army regulation overcoat." "The Jersey Blues on Hand", Evening News, May 6th, 1861

Further research is certainly required, I would lean towards a VRC jacket except the buttons appear to be coat size and not cuff, of course it looks as if the photographer tinted the buttons, so they could be either. The 10 buttons do not sway me as there appears to be missing button(s) at the bottom of the jacket.

 

[Package4]

I was glad to find this forum and it's threads. For 30 years I've been a history buff as time permits and read about C.W history. Within the last few weeks I was able to re-discover some family history I was shown in my youth. It's a photo that apparently skipped a whole generation, but my grandfather showed me as a pre-teen. After years of on and of searching, I got the copy below as well as a summary of the family history minus most of the back up information. It took a little digging, but I'm 95% sure that the soldier on the left is my great-great grandfather Patrick. The man on the right is his brother James (I'm also 99% sure the photo negative was flipped like so many others by looking at buttons and fly's). The limited notes I've found from our family historian (deceased for over a decade) have some information that doesn't quite add up. It may be that the history we have of this man is a composite of a few namesakes.

Here's the rub, his surname is a fairly common one in Ireland before he came over. There's many variations on the spelling, however. His/ours is the rarest of the bunch. that said we're not sure if he could read or write/spell. Based on geography, I've (hopefully) narrowed his assignment down to three potential units. My reasoning below:

1) There is a Patrick with the same spelling as the decedents in my line who would have enlisted in the 2nd NJ Infantry in 1861. He was later transferred to the 15th NJ for his final 3 mo's of service. I've found his grave site in Jersey (marked as 15th NJ) much closer to NYC than Philly. For the record, my great great grandfather's wife is certainly buried in Philly, but she outlived Patrick by over 2 decades.

2) The Patrick that our family historian said he is, would have been in the 95th PA and either enlisted or was drafted in Jan 64. That would have been Goslin's Zouaves, but the trousers and jacket don't match. I haven't given up on it though because he would have come in so late that it's likely he didn't get the Zouave Uniform. I've also found a photo of a soldier from the 72nd PA zouave unit in a similar uniform and similar kepi. That soldier died near "The Angle" at G-burg. What's slightly odd about the Patrick in the 95th is not only is his surname misspelled on his card that is blank except for a references another soldier listed as Jacob with the surname spelled differently. Considering the fact that there was a huge amount of Irish males named Patrick...maybe Jacob was his middle name??? I have no reason to believe that Patrick #2 is the same as Patrick #1, but from January 64 to Sept 64 both would have been part of 1st division of VI corps, so that makes tracking their movements a little easier. Allegedly this Patrick was wounded at Ceder creek and released in December 64. His record does not mention this and has him mustering out with company in July of 65.

3) This option may be a stretch. Same pronunciation, but again different spelling. 115th PA enlisted 1861 (iirc). There's both a Patrick and a James listed in the same company of this regiment. James is listed as "Not Accounted For". Patrick show's up on the Gettysburg Pennsylvania War memorial in company B of the 115, with again a slightly different spelling. Interestingly enough, there is a "Thomas" listed on the 115th company B plate with the same potential misspelling. I don't know what became of James, but there is evidence that his middle name could've been Thomas.

My Ramblings aside, are there any opinions on the uniformed soldier regarding unit? 95th PA circa 1864, 2nd NJ Circa 1861, 115th PA 1861? thanks in advance. Oh yeah, looks like the jacket has 10 buttons and slots. Does that lend a clue? I included photo as we have it as well as a lower res mirrored version as I believe it should've been.

View attachment 462338

View attachment 462339

We may be able to help, if you would, what is the surname(s)? I am leaning heavily on VRC, which would mean he was most likely wounded. The jacket and pants almost match exactly in hue, which pushes me in that direction, looking just above where they are holding hands, there is quite a bit of material, where there would be space for two buttons. The lowest button appears to be a cuff button, again more indication of a VRC jacket. He may have lost a button or two and used the bottom two as replacements.

 

[Package4]

I was glad to find this forum and it's threads. For 30 years I've been a history buff as time permits and read about C.W history. Within the last few weeks I was able to re-discover some family history I was shown in my youth. It's a photo that apparently skipped a whole generation, but my grandfather showed me as a pre-teen. After years of on and of searching, I got the copy below as well as a summary of the family history minus most of the back up information. It took a little digging, but I'm 95% sure that the soldier on the left is my great-great grandfather Patrick. The man on the right is his brother James (I'm also 99% sure the photo negative was flipped like so many others by looking at buttons and fly's). The limited notes I've found from our family historian (deceased for over a decade) have some information that doesn't quite add up. It may be that the history we have of this man is a composite of a few namesakes.

Here's the rub, his surname is a fairly common one in Ireland before he came over. There's many variations on the spelling, however. His/ours is the rarest of the bunch. that said we're not sure if he could read or write/spell. Based on geography, I've (hopefully) narrowed his assignment down to three potential units. My reasoning below:

1) There is a Patrick with the same spelling as the decedents in my line who would have enlisted in the 2nd NJ Infantry in 1861. He was later transferred to the 15th NJ for his final 3 mo's of service. I've found his grave site in Jersey (marked as 15th NJ) much closer to NYC than Philly. For the record, my great great grandfather's wife is certainly buried in Philly, but she outlived Patrick by over 2 decades.

2) The Patrick that our family historian said he is, would have been in the 95th PA and either enlisted or was drafted in Jan 64. That would have been Goslin's Zouaves, but the trousers and jacket don't match. I haven't given up on it though because he would have come in so late that it's likely he didn't get the Zouave Uniform. I've also found a photo of a soldier from the 72nd PA zouave unit in a similar uniform and similar kepi. That soldier died near "The Angle" at G-burg. What's slightly odd about the Patrick in the 95th is not only is his surname misspelled on his card that is blank except for a references another soldier listed as Jacob with the surname spelled differently. Considering the fact that there was a huge amount of Irish males named Patrick...maybe Jacob was his middle name??? I have no reason to believe that Patrick #2 is the same as Patrick #1, but from January 64 to Sept 64 both would have been part of 1st division of VI corps, so that makes tracking their movements a little easier. Allegedly this Patrick was wounded at Ceder creek and released in December 64. His record does not mention this and has him mustering out with company in July of 65.

3) This option may be a stretch. Same pronunciation, but again different spelling. 115th PA enlisted 1861 (iirc). There's both a Patrick and a James listed in the same company of this regiment. James is listed as "Not Accounted For". Patrick show's up on the Gettysburg Pennsylvania War memorial in company B of the 115, with again a slightly different spelling. Interestingly enough, there is a "Thomas" listed on the 115th company B plate with the same potential misspelling. I don't know what became of James, but there is evidence that his middle name could've been Thomas.

My Ramblings aside, are there any opinions on the uniformed soldier regarding unit? 95th PA circa 1864, 2nd NJ Circa 1861, 115th PA 1861? thanks in advance. Oh yeah, looks like the jacket has 10 buttons and slots. Does that lend a clue? I included photo as we have it as well as a lower res mirrored version as I believe it should've been.

View attachment 462338

View attachment 462339

There are actually very few Patricks in the 95th PA considering there were over 2000 enlisted there are fewer than 10 Patricks

 

[Woods-walker]

I was glad to find this forum and it's threads. For 30 years I've been a history buff as time permits and read about C.W history. Within the last few weeks I was able to re-discover some family history I was shown in my youth. It's a photo that apparently skipped a whole generation, but my grandfather showed me as a pre-teen. After years of on and of searching, I got the copy below as well as a summary of the family history minus most of the back up information. It took a little digging, but I'm 95% sure that the soldier on the left is my great-great grandfather Patrick. The man on the right is his brother James (I'm also 99% sure the photo negative was flipped like so many others by looking at buttons and fly's). The limited notes I've found from our family historian (deceased for over a decade) have some information that doesn't quite add up. It may be that the history we have of this man is a composite of a few namesakes.

Here's the rub, his surname is a fairly common one in Ireland before he came over. There's many variations on the spelling, however. His/ours is the rarest of the bunch. that said we're not sure if he could read or write/spell. Based on geography, I've (hopefully) narrowed his assignment down to three potential units. My reasoning below:

1) There is a Patrick with the same spelling as the decedents in my line who would have enlisted in the 2nd NJ Infantry in 1861. He was later transferred to the 15th NJ for his final 3 mo's of service. I've found his grave site in Jersey (marked as 15th NJ) much closer to NYC than Philly. For the record, my great great grandfather's wife is certainly buried in Philly, but she outlived Patrick by over 2 decades.

2) The Patrick that our family historian said he is, would have been in the 95th PA and either enlisted or was drafted in Jan 64. That would have been Goslin's Zouaves, but the trousers and jacket don't match. I haven't given up on it though because he would have come in so late that it's likely he didn't get the Zouave Uniform. I've also found a photo of a soldier from the 72nd PA zouave unit in a similar uniform and similar kepi. That soldier died near "The Angle" at G-burg. What's slightly odd about the Patrick in the 95th is not only is his surname misspelled on his card that is blank except for a references another soldier listed as Jacob with the surname spelled differently. Considering the fact that there was a huge amount of Irish males named Patrick...maybe Jacob was his middle name??? I have no reason to believe that Patrick #2 is the same as Patrick #1, but from January 64 to Sept 64 both would have been part of 1st division of VI corps, so that makes tracking their movements a little easier. Allegedly this Patrick was wounded at Ceder creek and released in December 64. His record does not mention this and has him mustering out with company in July of 65.

3) This option may be a stretch. Same pronunciation, but again different spelling. 115th PA enlisted 1861 (iirc). There's both a Patrick and a James listed in the same company of this regiment. James is listed as "Not Accounted For". Patrick show's up on the Gettysburg Pennsylvania War memorial in company B of the 115, with again a slightly different spelling. Interestingly enough, there is a "Thomas" listed on the 115th company B plate with the same potential misspelling. I don't know what became of James, but there is evidence that his middle name could've been Thomas.

My Ramblings aside, are there any opinions on the uniformed soldier regarding unit? 95th PA circa 1864, 2nd NJ Circa 1861, 115th PA 1861? thanks in advance. Oh yeah, looks like the jacket has 10 buttons and slots. Does that lend a clue? I included photo as we have it as well as a lower res mirrored version as I believe it should've been.

View attachment 462338

View attachment 462339

Welcome from Soldiers Who Fought on Horseback Cavalry forum

 

[redbob]

Welcome to the group from middle Alabama and good luck on your search.

 

[BCS1973]

There are actually very few Patricks in the 95th PA considering there were over 2000 enlisted there are fewer than 10 Patricks

 

[BCS1973]

I'm starting to agree this is a Vet reserve photo. Another clue, this is helpful. Thanks.

 

[RedRover]

Further research is certainly required, I would lean towards a VRC jacket except the buttons appear to be coat size and not cuff, of course it looks as if the photographer tinted the buttons, so they could be either. The 10 buttons do not sway me as there appears to be missing button(s) at the bottom of the jacket.

Looking at the buttons closely, I see you are correct. They appear to be the correct smallervest size for a VRC jacket principally, with perhaps some dabbed on tinting of the top ones making them look larger.

So, this article posted on the forum a while back, by Mr. Chris Daley on the Veteran Reserve Corps jackets, notes many small variations in their finish, including the button count, with surviving originals with 9, 11, and 12 buttons. Mr. Daley notes:

"Only one pattern was used by the Schuylkill Arsenal, the Cincinnati Depot and contractors. The variations that occur among Invalid Corps jackets are "style" differences and are not pattern changes. Among the variations seen in jackets are the amount of buttonholes, anywhere from the prescribed 12, to as few as 9. The trim on the collar is also a style variation. Most of the Invalid Corps jackets, and all the ones surveyed from the Schuylkill Arsenal, have a one-double row of lace on the collar to emulate a false buttonhole. Some photos exhibit one-single row of lace and some jackets lack this feature all together."

VRCJacketArticle: CivilWarTalk

Considering the above, I too would guess a VRC jacket in the image.

 

[BCS1973]

Looking at the buttons closely, I see you are correct. They appear to be the correct smallervest size for a VRC jacket principally, with perhaps some dabbed on tinting of the top ones making them look larger.
View attachment 462419

So, this article posted on the forum a while back, by Mr. Chris Daley on the Veteran Reserve Corps jackets, notes many small variations in their finish, including the button count, with surviving originals with 9, 11, and 12 buttons. Mr. Daley notes:

"Only one pattern was used by the Schuylkill Arsenal, the Cincinnati Depot and contractors. The variations that occur among Invalid Corps jackets are "style" differences and are not pattern changes. Among the variations seen in jackets are the amount of buttonholes, anywhere from the prescribed 12, to as few as 9. The trim on the collar is also a style variation. Most of the Invalid Corps jackets, and all the ones surveyed from the Schuylkill Arsenal, have a one-double row of lace on the collar to emulate a false buttonhole. Some photos exhibit one-single row of lace and some jackets lack this feature all together."

VRCJacketArticle: CivilWarTalk

Considering the above, I too would guess a VRC jacket in the image.

So when you talk about highlighting, in my photo there appears to be a tassel of sorts that runs from the 4th button up on the vest to about the waist. I've noticed this on a large percentage of the Veteran reserve photos I've looked up where the jacket was open. Is this a VRC thing or was it more common?

 

[RedRover]

So when you talk about highlighting, in my photo there appears to be a tassel of sorts that runs from the 4th button up on the vest to about the waist. I've noticed this on a large percentage of the Veteran reserve photos I've looked up where the jacket was open. Is this a VRC thing or was it more common?

That is a watch chain. It is indistinct perhaps because the developer also tinted it like the buttons...

The watch would either be in a side pocket on his vest. It is how watches were commonly worn in the period.

Army trousers also had a watch pocket on the waist line for when no vest was worn, etc. (vests not being regulation uniform garments for enlisted men).

Here's a good article on Civil War soldier's watches by Dick Milstead:

Milstead: The Soldier's Watch: Liberty Rifles website