Need Help Authenticating A Confederate (VA) Battle Flag!

[Solomon]

I recently found a (purported) rebel battle flag for sale, and as I would love to eventually own one from each side, I thought I would pass it by the forum and see what you think. The flag is supposed to be from the 8th VA Infantry, circa 1861. It is difficult to see, but "8th Vo, INF" is supposed to be stitched on, and the flag measures about 2ft across. This is the only photo I have, sorry for the lack of additional details.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[UCVRelics]

I looked at it last week when it went up. Without seeing it in person AND a UV (blacklight) test I wouldn't go near it

 

[Solomon]

Muchos gracias UCV.

 

[Solomon]

Just out of curiosity, what does the UV tell you?

 

[UCVRelics]

The blacklight will show the age of the dye used in the fabric, if it fluoresce its not old.

 

[Solomon]

10-4. Thanks!

 

[Mrs. V]

The blacklight will show the age of the dye used in the fabric, if it fluoresce its not old.

Huh. Aniline dye does not flouresce? Interesting.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

My first thought was a post War item, not an actual battle flag.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Not an original period flag. Also a rather cheesy attempt to "age" the flag to attempt to imply it is... sorry.

 

[mofederal]

If anything was ever washed with a modern soap, like before WWII it will fluoresce. The thread will also glow, a dead giveaway of a synthetic material, as opposed to natural materials like cotton, wool, flax, ramie, silk, denim, leather or fur. Those items made after the introduction of synthetic materials, such as Nylon, rayon, polyester, used for threads or cloths. This are things to kook for and a cheap handheld blacklight will show you. They will make synthetics fluoresce or glow under a blacklight. An important item for collectors to own. I wasn't trying to lecture anyone, just explain a subject some have never encountered before.

 

[AUG]

I don't know if you're the same poster, but there was another thread asking about this flag posted not long ago: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/confederate-flags.140200/

As I said there, this one appears to be a replica (most likely postwar) of the flag presented to the 8th Virginia Infantry after the battle of Ball's Bluff/Leesburg. The actual flag is below. It was made by Mrs. Beauregard from dress silk.

 

[Solomon]

Very interesting, and appreciate all the posts and info. Not taken that way at all, mofederal - good stuff to put in toolkit, both literally and figuratively. And yep, def the same flag, AUG! I looked through that thread - hope the guys get caught at some point, for taking so much $ from folks and for falsifying history. Will pick up a blacklight sometime.

 

[Package4]

View attachment 166253
I recently found a (purported) rebel battle flag for sale, and as I would love to eventually own one from each side, I thought I would pass it by the forum and see what you think. The flag is supposed to be from the 8th VA Infantry, circa 1861. It is difficult to see, but "8th Vo, INF" is supposed to be stitched on, and the flag measures about 2ft across. This is the only photo I have, sorry for the lack of additional details.

Many thanks in advance.

Consider how rare a Confederate flag is as compared to every other piece of ACW memorabilia. Just simple math dictates the rarity, considering the number of regiments, then the flags capture and being deposited in state houses, federal repositories and museums. All Confederate flags should be considered fake until proven otherwise, there needs to be a provenance other than a simple tag. Textile analysis is usually recommended, by a bonafide vexillologist and textile historian. Captured flags actually have a federal ID number imprinted on them.

There was an auction in Crumpton, MD years ago (2004) where they have multiple auctions going at the same time, a couple in fields where box lots and furniture are sold and the more valuable items inside. Well a box of "junk" came up I believe outside and there were three flags in the box. A couple of bidders apparently knew or guessed that they might be something and the box sold for $250, box lots outside go for far less. They sold in a NY city auction for over $250,000 IIRC.

 

[Package4]

Very interesting, and appreciate all the posts and info. Not taken that way at all, mofederal - good stuff to put in toolkit, both literally and figuratively. And yep, def the same flag, AUG! I looked through that thread - hope the guys get caught at some point, for taking so much $ from folks and for falsifying history. Will pick up a blacklight sometime.

The blacklight thing is OK, but the individuals who fake this stuff know better and utilize vintage cloth and sewing materials. A very good friend of mine bought a set of "Confederate" clothing from a picker. Shell jacket, McDowell cap and vest, passed blacklight, construction was right, cloth was older and hard (wool loses lanolin as it ages and becomes rough and hard) had all the attributes. Turns out they were made from a Spanish American war blanket with older thread, the forage cap may be real, but the balance was either an early re-enactment piece or a purposeful fake. Les Jensen viewed the pieces and made the blanket determination. If it is too good to be true, 99.5% of the time it is.

Another good friend of mine, who is a prominent ACW memorabilia dealer, has a bolt of original federal sack coat cloth, he also has a Wheeler & Wilson sewing machine. He could, if he wanted, manufacture quite a few pristine sack coats, thankfully, that is not his nature and the cloth goes to saving original pieces that are falling apart. Spools of thread are available today, that are older than synthetics and can be found at estate auctions weekly.

Rule of thumb, if it costs more than a happy meal and you don't know, either get help or pass.

 

[unicornforge]

Years ago, an acquaintance and I were in a "reputable" dealer of Civil War relics store. When we came to a "authentic" Civil War No.1 Cannon wheel, I pointed out all the wood putty, as well as replacement parts (fellows, spokes, and bolts) and even was able to tell him the name of the supplier of the replacement parts. ..... Here is a clue. No modern manufacturer makes 1/2-inch Wheel Bolts anymore. Instead they usually use 3/8-inch Amish-type buggy bolts. If you live near Gettysburg and take a Cannon wheel to Lancaster to have it repaired/refurbished, you are likely to have them use buggy bolts and wood putty. For 1/2-inch bolts you would either have to make them yourself, or find someone who can.

 

[Solomon]

Man. Hell of a story, P4. I'm sure I would have sold two - be a game changer on $ - but don't know if I would have been able to resist keeping one of those..

 

[UCVRelics]

@Package4 is spot on as the guys in Bristol who went to jail for making the FAKE CS & reunion flags used Mexican sail cloth but the frayed star edges and the fact that they all had the same stenciling made if obvious.

 

[E_just_E]

If you see any Confederate Flags with the names of the battle that were given by the Union (eg. Ball's Bluff, Antietam) instead of the Confederacy (eg. Leesburg, Sharpsburg,) run away. Run away twice if they have weird stuff on them like brass grommets, and run away three times if the stars look like sugar cookies made by a 10 year old. That one satisfies all these...

 

[E_just_E]

I don't know if you're the same poster, but there was another thread asking about this flag posted not long ago: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/confederate-flags.140200/

As I said there, this one appears to be a replica (most likely postwar) of the flag presented to the 8th Virginia Infantry after the battle of Ball's Bluff/Leesburg. The actual flag is below. It was made by Mrs. Beauregard from dress silk.

View attachment 166259

Yeah. Actually there are several more convincing modern replicas of the above flag than the one in the OP, which haven't gone through the wringer. Yet:

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

and run away three times if the stars look like sugar cookies made by a 10 year old.