NCO Swords

[Richard E. Schenk]

There is an interesting photo on our favorite auction site of a master sergeant showing an apparently VI Corps emblem on his hat and wearing what looks to be a M1850 or Mle 1821 infantry sword on his belt. There is a similar photo of another sergeant wearing a Mle 1821 infantry sword suspended by a frog from his belt. Just how common was it for NCOs to wear M 1850/Mle 1821 swords rather than the regulation M1840 NCO sword?

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

It is interesting to note the Army Uniform Regulation of 1851 showed Army NCOs wearing such swords.

 

[UCVRelics]

When you got that high up the NCO ranks I don't believe anyone was going say a word. BTW these were more than likely studio props.

 

[TexBadger]

this post might be better placed in the edged weapons category

 

[Rhea Cole]

NCO swords & other pre-war parade ground garrison soldier gee-gaws like brass epaulettes were packed away or discarded along the line of march. The only wartime units sporting such military finery were static heavy artillery & the like.

Weapons of all kinds were used as photographer's props. It is probable that is what is depicted in the images above.

For those unfamiliar with the NCO sword, it is a narrow straight blade with a cast brass guard & grip. It was ceremonial, not intended as a combat weapon.

The sword could draw blood. While idling away the time waiting for the Holy Ground Lantern Tour of Stones River Cemetery to start, my little granddaughter bowered my NCO sword. As I instructed, she happily swiped away at low hanging leaves at a respectable distance. She uttered those fateful words, "Look at me!" I turned my head just in time for the tip of the sword to tick across the bridge of my nose. She joined a select few who had ever drawn blood with an NCO sword.

 

[Rhea Cole]

It is interesting to note the Army Uniform Regulation of 1851 showed Army NCOs wearing such swords.
View attachment 452251

For what it is worth, in the image above, the NCO on the right is wearing an artillery saber. The red epaulettes, red cockade & red stipe on his pants indicate the artillery branch. The green epaulettes indicate heavy artillery, i.e., cross trained as infantry.

 

[Old Soldier]

The Sergeant's sword was originally just a self-defense weapon as the sergeant's job was to manage the platoon/company and ensure they followed their officer into battle. As Rhea said - it was rarely used as the sergeant was nearly always BEHIND the ranks. After any first battle, many sergeants equipped themselves wih the rifle musket or a revolver.

BTW - This followed French practice. The British army had long since issued their sergeants with a shorter barrel musket - ie the two-band Enfield at this period. The only time this was issued to junior ranks was in jungle/close quarter campaigns. The standard bayonet for the two-band was a saber/yataghan sword bayonet!

 

[14NYSM]

From what I've seen in images, NCO's on Regimental or higher staffs seem to have affected officer swords as well as cap insignia.

 

[Old Soldier]

From what I've seen in images, NCO's on Regimental or higher staffs seem to have affected officer swords as well as cap insignia.

They were not 'just' sergeants but a higher rank and many would have been mounted - requiring a cavalry sword like an officer.

 

[R. Porter]

I would have to say that the model 1840 NCO sword and musician's sword were more robust than any infantry officer's spadroon I've looked at dating to before the Civil War. In addition they made thousands of the things. It seems to have been the most repurposed sword of the Civil War. By that I mean that they were adapted to more other uses after the war than other swords of the time. I have seen them made into fencing swords and theatrical swords. They were still regulation swords into the 20th​ century and were made into combat knives used in World War II. I picked one up off of Main Street in Richmond one Sunday morning that had been dropped by a suspect being chased by police the night before. I have also seen them in lots of photographs of the period and photographs of relics that have been dug out of the ground, so somebody thought they were worth churning out.

 

[Old Soldier]

Swords gradually became symbols of rank or position - as they are now. Whenever you have a surplus of anything after a conflict, they will get 're-used'. Many military rifles were 'sporterised'. In the case of many ports, the advent of new cannon meant that the old three-deckers were obsolete - as were their cannon. Many of the bollards in older British towns - and many other ports - were those same cannon buried deep down, usually muzzle up and plugged with an over-calibre ball!

In Havana

In Dublin

 

[huds1117]

There are several accounts of the NCO sword being used as a successful prod to get soldiers or stubborn mules moving. It does seem to ring true that it would not have been a great weapon. I own one and it is not sharp and did not ever appear to be. The bayonet on my Springfield musket is, on the other hand, quite a weapon still to this day.

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

For what it is worth, in the image above, the NCO on the right is wearing an artillery saber. The red epaulettes, red cockade & red stipe on his pants indicate the artillery branch. The green epaulettes indicate heavy artillery, i.e., cross trained as infantry.

They are not wearing artillery sabers. Artillery sabers had steel scabbards, those shown are brass mounted leather bodied scabbards. The NCO with green epaulettes is identified in the caption an a "Foot Rifleman", the one with red epaulets as an "Ordnance Sergeant" from the Army Ordnance Department.

 

[Old Soldier]

They are not wearing artillery sabers. Artillery sabers had steel scabbards, those shown are brass mounted leather bodied scabbards. The NCO with green epaulettes is identified in the caption an a "Foot Rifleman", the one with red epaulets as an "Ordnance Sergeant" from the Army Ordnance Department.

The sergeant on the right has a sword carried in a frog on the belt - usual for unmounted troops - while the one on the left (Foot Rifleman officer?) is the only one shown with a slung sword mount - usual for mounted soldiers. It also appears to be more curved than the others - a fair indication of a saber. As for accuracy, it does depend who the artist was and their knowledge of military equipment. The 'brass mounted leather bodied scabbard' is far easier to depict - and looks far more appealing to the eye than a steel scabbard, if, indeed, he ever saw one.

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

The sergeant on the right has a sword carried in a frog on the belt - usual for unmounted troops - while the one on the left (Foot Rifleman officer?) is the only one shown with a slung sword mount - usual for mounted soldiers. It also appears to be more curved than the others - a fair indication of a saber. As for accuracy, it does depend who the artist was and their knowledge of military equipment. The 'brass mounted leather bodied scabbard' is far easier to depict - and looks far more appealing to the eye than a steel scabbard, if, indeed, he ever saw one.

The illustration is from the official 1851 Army regulation which was published to provided definitive guidance to the troops and their organization and suppliers as to the appearance of the uniform. I doubt if the artist or the general who signed off the picture as "offical" would depict an incorrect scabbard. The individual of the left with the sword carried by a sling is indentified in the caption as a Captain, Foot Rifles. The sword he is carrying is likely a M1850 foot officers sword.

 

[Old Soldier]

The illustration is from the official 1851 Army regulation which was published to provided definitive guidance to the troops and their organization and suppliers as to the appearance of the uniform. I doubt if the artist or the general who signed off the picture as "offical" would depict an incorrect scabbard. The individual of the left with the sword carried by a sling is indentified in the caption as a Captain, Foot Rifles. The sword he is carrying is likely a M1850 foot officers sword.

So even you are unsure? I did look it up and you are probably right. However, he would still likely have been mounted though - a company commander You try running through the woods with your sword worn like that! The smaller captions are almost unreadable.

(I love this site - it makes you look up so much you are not familiar with!)

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

I sure am unsure! I don't know what the authors thought they were showing in the illustration of the NCO swords in the regulation because they most surely were not the M1840 NCO sword nor any of the other enlisted Army swords/sabers currently in use. They most closely resemble those shown in the USMC Uniform Regulation of 1859 which makes me wonder if the Army was contemplating replacing the M1840 NCO sword with something like the Marine M1859 sergeant's sword. 

 

[Old Soldier]

Have you ever thought that those drawings were done to show the UNIFORM and not the equipment? The rifle muskets are not particularly well detailed either.

 

[Rhea Cole]

As I indicated above, NCO swords were not fighting weapons. The same blade was used with a wide variety of hilts hafted on that were emblems of branch. The medical, pay corps, quartermasters, bandsmen, & others had emblematic sword hilts. Staff officers are often photographed with their branch sword hilt in view.

If you have ever worn a sword for any length of time, I do not have to explain how klunky it is. I used to do an early war sergeant impression. He wore his NCO sword in camp. Stepping down a tall stone I managed to stick my NCO scabbard into the top of my brogan. The #%>+ thing would not lift out making it impossible to straighten my leg. I hopped around in an arm flailing attempt to maintain my balance. Failing that, crashing wings level & forward was my only dignified course of action. Fortunately, I was not injured because my comrades were completely helpless from laughter at my predicament.

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

Have you ever thought that those drawings were done to show the UNIFORM and not the equipment? The rifle muskets are not particularly well detailed either.

The sword was considered a uniform item in the regulation. Firearms were not.