Nat Turner

[gem]

That brings up a question I hadn't thought about. Did any slaves permanently obtain their freedom through Nat Turner's actions? I mean not killed or captured in the uprising and able to make it north or out of the country to enjoy the rest of their natural life in freedom.

No. In fact, many innocent blacks were killed in retaliation , fear and paranoia

 

[Dave Wilma]

Turner should be acknowledged for one more example of how the slavery system was doomed. If the slaveocracy had to keep ramping up control mechanisms for the labor force then something was wrong.

I tend to come down on the "honor" side of Turner since it was his own freedom he was fighting for, but the children he murdered were not slaveholders. How can you honor the bravery of one who kills children? His conduct just inflamed the slave system to the detriment of all involved. He had a moral right to resist I suppose, but no legal right.

This would be a great essay question for high school, even college.

 

[gem]

But was he out for freedom for himself or other slaves or just snapped from being a slave and went on a murder spree?

I would not say one day he just snapped. Turner was extremely religious.

He had visions which he believed were messages from God. He saw himself as a prophet.
He believed God wished blood to be spilled as means of atonement for the evils of slavery.
He thought on this for many years and gathered four others who were his closest allies.

His insurrection was definitely something which was planned for a long time. He and his men went from house to house of slaveowners killing all in the household and taking those slaves along who were willing to join. By doing this at its peak he was able to gather about 70-80 blacks in his army some were even free blacks. Of course, once the element of surprise was lost things fell apart very quickly.

 

[Nathanb1]

I would not say one day he just snapped. Turner was extremely religious.

He had visions which he believed were messages from God. He saw himself as a prophet.
He believed God wished blood to be spilled as means of atonement for the evils of slavery.
He thought on this for many years and gathered four others who were his closest allies.

These are called hallucinations, for heaven's sake. God told me to buy anything I wanted at Neiman's because I'm such a good person....but I expect I'll have to pay the bill.

Just let us know if you're having visions. Okay?

 

[gem]

Turner should be acknowledged for one more example of how the slavery system was doomed. If the slaveocracy had to keep ramping up control mechanisms for the labor force then something was wrong.

I tend to come down on the "honor" side of Turner since it was his own freedom he was fighting for, but the children he murdered were not slaveholders. How can you honor the bravery of one who kills children? His conduct just inflamed the slave system to the detriment of all involved. He had a moral right to resist I suppose, but no legal right.

This would be a great essay question for high school, even college.

Slaves definitely had the right to fight for their freedom. Of course, its tough for us to reconcile the killing of women and children. I think what the Turner insurrection shows as well as other slave insurrections is that slavery as an institution was 1) doomed to failure 2) results in unbridled retaliatory killings

One could speculate on the reasons. It could be that slaves were at such a disadvantage that by leaving people alive it would have meant quicker discovery and a stop to the insurrection. It could also be that they were going for maximum effect and maximum effect comes with maximum killing. It could also be the simple human emotion of revenge. With black slave women and children brutalized indiscriminatory mass killing to the slaves may have represented a sort of justice. Not only destroy the slavemaster but destroy everything that means something to him.

I think these types of insurrections say a lot about the institution of slavery.

 

[gem]

Sorry Gem, even to me he has nothing to honor..And in fact, made life much worse for slaves...

I think its tough for us to say that he made things worse for the slave in the absolute sense.

We know as a result of the insurrection there were retaliatory killings and the south tightened up on slavery. Thus in this way we could say he made things worse.

However there was also good which came out of the insurrection. He shattered the myth that slavery was a benign domestic institution. VA as a result held debates on abolition. Although the debates did not go anywhere it was a historic event in the south.

He also gave those who were antislavery additional fuel that they were correct. People had predicted slavery would meet a bloody end and the insurrection serves as one more example on the need for abolition.

Unfortunately, the South was not looking to take responsibility in the institution of slavery so blamed the Yankees for stirring up agitation .

It was events like this which forced the issue of slavery and thus may have helped it meet a quicker end than had slavery been allowed to continue unfettered.

In this much greater symbolic sense, Turner may helped expedite the end of slavery which means he really helped millions of black slaves.

 

[gem]

Newark New Jersey has opened a park named Nat Turner Park.
"Cucchi said Nat Turner Park, which is named after the American slave who led revolt in 1831 in Virginia, is now the largest city-owned park in Newark."

Interesting article. At its most basic level Turner represents someone who fought for his freedom. and particularly a black man who fought for his freedom.

Thus, that symbolism has a lot of meaning to some people.

 

[gem]

What we know about Turner is that religion played a key role in his insurrection plan.
We know he saw visions and took things he saw in the environment around him as signs from God.
It's possible that like many in the antebellum period he used religion in a way that helped him make sense of what was happening. Many people in the antebellum south thought God wanted slavery. Where all of these people crazy?

Of course it is also possible that these visions represented true delusions and that he had a mental illness. We also know however, that having mental illness doesn't automatically make someone a killer. Thus, we can't ignore the critical role that slavery played in shaping Nat Turner.

Further, Turner was able to amass a rebel group of about 70-80 blacks some who were even free blacks. Were all of these people mentally ill? I think not.

 

[gem]

Though slaves in the US were obviously never able to gain their freedom through revolt, insurrections nevertheless play an important part in the history of the 'peculiar institution'

Though the slaves were not successful it should not detract in our attempt to understand the meaning of these insurrections and thus the meaning of slavery to the enslaved.

 

[Georgia Coast]

OK, this brings up some weird stuff I read about Denmark Vesey some years back. (I grew up in and near Charleston, so this is especially interesting to me.) Much more than Nat Turner, Vesey has been lauded by many as heroic although he insisted on his innocence to the end. According to this scholar, the actual court documents strongly indicate that it was a case of white hysteria -- that he was innocent of the conspiracy. Have any other scholars come to agree with this? It seems to me that nobody else ever came on board with this theory. Yet it seems somewhat plausible to me.

http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/2001/22oct01/22sleuth.html

 

[gem]

The Fires of Jubilee: Nat Turner's Fierce Rebellion [Paperback]
Stephen B. Oates (Author)
For those who are interested in learning more about Turner I would recommend the above book. It's well researched and tells the story of Turner as told through his own eyes. By taking us back the the antebellum period, Oates forces us to imagine life as Nat saw it. It reads more like a gripping novel than a historical study. It's an easy read which can easily be finished in just 1 or 2 sittings. The reader will find its well worth the attempt to understand this important and tragic historical figure.

 

[gem]

Turner should be acknowledged for one more example of how the slavery system was doomed. If the slaveocracy had to keep ramping up control mechanisms for the labor force then something was wrong.

I tend to come down on the "honor" side of Turner since it was his own freedom he was fighting for, but the children he murdered were not slaveholders. How can you honor the bravery of one who kills children? His conduct just inflamed the slave system to the detriment of all involved. He had a moral right to resist I suppose, but no legal right.

This would be a great essay question for high school, even college.

does it really matter that he did not have a legal right?

 

[gem]

Or, maybe a closer parallel, Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kaczynski, since they both had a presumed "cause," so the killing wasn't supposed to be just an end in itself.

There is a major difference. Neither of their causes involved fighting for their own freedom in such an obvious manner as the enslaved.

Their cause was presumed while Turner's was obvious.

 

[Dave Wilma]

does it really matter that he did not have a legal right?

Now you have the central question for the entire era. Answering it cost us 700,000+ dead and 1 million maimed.

 

[gem]

Now you have the central question for the entire era. Answering it cost us 700,000+ dead and 1 million maimed.

In Turner's confessions when he was in jail and asked now that he saw how things turned out was not his insurrection a mistake. Turner replied no, "wasn't Christ crucified"

Its a profound statement. Here is a man chained to wall, about to be hanged, told his comrades already hanged, told his wife sold south and he says was not Christ Crucified. Its an astonishing moment in human history.

 

[gem]

according to noted historian Eugene Genovese "Revolutions have to be thorough or they are doomed. Real revolutionaries know that and that's why they have to proceed in cold blood"

 

[gem]

"The time is fast approaching, when the first should be last and the last should be first" - Nat Turner

 

[Georgia Coast]

As much as I view the institution of slavery as a monstrous wrong that almost destroyed our nation, I can't quite get to the point of "honoring" Turner when so many innocents were slaughtered. I can grieve for him and his life, but I can't get to the point of "honor."

 

[gem]

Turner should be acknowledged for one more example of how the slavery system was doomed. If the slaveocracy had to keep ramping up control mechanisms for the labor force then something was wrong.

I tend to come down on the "honor" side of Turner since it was his own freedom he was fighting for, but the children he murdered were not slaveholders. How can you honor the bravery of one who kills children? His conduct just inflamed the slave system to the detriment of all involved. He had a moral right to resist I suppose, but no legal right.

This would be a great essay question for high school, even college.

Was Turner really a detriment to all involved or by forcing the nation to confront slavery did he play an role important in expediting its demise?

 

[Lazy Bayou]

As much as I view the institution of slavery as a monstrous wrong that almost destroyed our nation, I can't quite get to the point of "honoring" Turner when so many innocents were slaughtered. I can grieve for him and his life, but I can't get to the point of "honor."

Agree 100%. Well said.