My 1st guest post on ECW

[JohnG0609]

I have my first publication on ECW blog. Let me know what you think.

Challenging the Myth of "Hold at All Costs" the City of Vicksburg - Emerging Civil War

ECW welcomes guest author John Gillespie. It has become a common belief, almost canonical, in Vicksburg historiography that Jefferson Davis ordered John C. Pemberton to “hold Vicksburg at all costs.” However, the historical record does not support this assertion. The most common source of this...

emergingcivilwar.com

 

[Specster]

I think Pemberton gets a raw deal out of the seige. No one was coming to break him out...if they did I think Grant would have crushed them regardless. Genius capture by Grant, a great display of his tenacity and ability to innovate

 

[Michael C. Hardy]

Congrats on that post!

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

I have my first publication on ECW blog. Let me know what you think.

Challenging the Myth of "Hold at All Costs" the City of Vicksburg - Emerging Civil War

ECW welcomes guest author John Gillespie. It has become a common belief, almost canonical, in Vicksburg historiography that Jefferson Davis ordered John C. Pemberton to “hold Vicksburg at all costs.” However, the historical record does not support this assertion. The most common source of this...

emergingcivilwar.com

Congratulations! I had East Tennessee kinfolk at Vicksburg.

 

[rpkennedy]

I have my first publication on ECW blog. Let me know what you think.

Challenging the Myth of "Hold at All Costs" the City of Vicksburg - Emerging Civil War

ECW welcomes guest author John Gillespie. It has become a common belief, almost canonical, in Vicksburg historiography that Jefferson Davis ordered John C. Pemberton to “hold Vicksburg at all costs.” However, the historical record does not support this assertion. The most common source of this...

emergingcivilwar.com

I'll be reading that tonight. Excellent work!

Ryan

 

[JohnG0609]

I'll be reading that tonight. Excellent work!

Ryan

Thank you! Let me know what you think.

Man I spent many a night with some of the best people I've ever known, my seminar mates, at Brick and The Whiskey Rebellion in Carlisle.

Proud graduate of the Army War College, Class of 2018!

 

[JohnG0609]

Congratulations! I had East Tennessee kinfolk at Vicksburg.

Uh oh, some of those rapscallions in Vaughn's brigade?

 

[rpkennedy]

Thank you! Let me know what you think.

Man I spent many a night with some of the best people I've ever known, my seminar mates, at Brick and The Whiskey Rebellion in Carlisle.

Proud graduate of the Army War College, Class of 2018!

Sadly, the Brick is gone now (my wife was deeply disappointed when they closed).

Ryan

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

Uh oh, some of those rapscallions in Vaughn's brigade?

True, one was in the 3rd Maryland Artillery. He came back to East Tennessee and joined the Union Army in 1864.

 

[JohnG0609]

True, one was in the 3rd Maryland Artillery. He came back to East Tennessee and joined the Union Army in 1864.

On my nightstand yet to be read is "All Right Let Them Come." Looking forward to reading it

 

[JohnG0609]

Sadly, the Brick is gone now (my wife was deeply disappointed when they closed).

Ryan

Yeah. I had heard that. Was a great place

 

[Spinifex]

I have my first publication on ECW blog. Let me know what you think.

Challenging the Myth of "Hold at All Costs" the City of Vicksburg - Emerging Civil War

ECW welcomes guest author John Gillespie. It has become a common belief, almost canonical, in Vicksburg historiography that Jefferson Davis ordered John C. Pemberton to “hold Vicksburg at all costs.” However, the historical record does not support this assertion. The most common source of this...

emergingcivilwar.com

Congratulations! I have always liked Pemberton. I think Johnston failed to offer any real help.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

@JohnG0609.

Congrats on your first published Emerging Civil War article.
I enjoyed reading your conclusions.

But I must ask ...what are your detailed thoughts/analysis regarding General Joe Johnston's so called "Vicksburg Army of Relief" ?

Thanks !

 

[TallTallMan]

Awesome!

 

[Stryker65]

I have my first publication on ECW blog. Let me know what you think.

Challenging the Myth of "Hold at All Costs" the City of Vicksburg - Emerging Civil War

ECW welcomes guest author John Gillespie. It has become a common belief, almost canonical, in Vicksburg historiography that Jefferson Davis ordered John C. Pemberton to “hold Vicksburg at all costs.” However, the historical record does not support this assertion. The most common source of this...

emergingcivilwar.com

Congrats! Was the application process simple?

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Congrats on your first ECW post.

I would suggest if you are going to dispel a myth it's a good idea to start by citing examples of the myth in print, even if only in a footnote. Especially since in this case the myth emphasizes specific wording ("at all costs"). That also gives you (in a followup article), or another interested party the opportunity to investigate where the myth started. There's usually one starting point.

I've read debate over the years about the wording of 1860s military orders. Lee's "if practical" for example. We do need to be careful to remember how we'd write today, including writing a modern military order, isn't necessarily the same as how someone might have written to give the same instructions 160 years ago.

I read Pemberton suggesting withdrawal and Davis responding by explaining the importance of Vicksburg and Port Hudson to be an implied order not to withdraw. "At all costs" is something of a moot point. Not "holding at all costs" meant evacuation before Grant invested the place.

 

[JohnG0609]

Congrats on your first ECW post.

I would suggest if you are going to dispel a myth it's a good idea to start by citing examples of the myth in print, even if only in a footnote. Especially since in this case the myth emphasizes specific wording ("at all costs"). That also gives you (in a followup article), or another interested party the opportunity to investigate where the myth started. There's usually one starting point.

I've read debate over the years about the wording of 1860s military orders. Lee's "if practical" for example. We do need to be careful to remember how we'd write today, including writing a modern military order, isn't necessarily the same as how someone might have written to give the same instructions 160 years ago.

I read Pemberton suggesting withdrawal and Davis responding by explaining the importance of Vicksburg and Port Hudson to be an implied order not to withdraw. "At all costs" is something of a moot point. Not "holding at all costs" meant evacuation before Grant invested the place.

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, word count constrained me from citing examples.

@JohnG0609.

Congrats on your first published Emerging Civil War article.
I enjoyed reading your conclusions.

But I must ask ...what are your detailed thoughts/analysis regarding General Joe Johnston's so called "Vicksburg Army of Relief" ?

Thanks !

I haven't quite gotten to analyzing Johnston's operations after May 17, but I will say that it would be very hard to organize, equip, train, and sustain a five division (4 Inf/1 Cav) army in 30 days.
I know many criticize Johnston for not doing anything to relieve Pemberton, but I've also not seen any opinion on what that operation would have looked like. Just a quick glance at the map tells me that any attempt at relieving Vicksburg would have been a dangerous proposition.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the question.

 

[JohnG0609]

Congrats on your first ECW post.

I would suggest if you are going to dispel a myth it's a good idea to start by citing examples of the myth in print, even if only in a footnote. Especially since in this case the myth emphasizes specific wording ("at all costs"). That also gives you (in a followup article), or another interested party the opportunity to investigate where the myth started. There's usually one starting point.

I've read debate over the years about the wording of 1860s military orders. Lee's "if practical" for example. We do need to be careful to remember how we'd write today, including writing a modern military order, isn't necessarily the same as how someone might have written to give the same instructions 160 years ago.

I read Pemberton suggesting withdrawal and Davis responding by explaining the importance of Vicksburg and Port Hudson to be an implied order not to withdraw. "At all costs" is something of a moot point. Not "holding at all costs" meant evacuation before Grant invested the place.

Congrats on your first ECW post.

I would suggest if you are going to dispel a myth it's a good idea to start by citing examples of the myth in print, even if only in a footnote. Especially since in this case the myth emphasizes specific wording ("at all costs"). That also gives you (in a followup article), or another interested party the opportunity to investigate where the myth started. There's usually one starting point.

I've read debate over the years about the wording of 1860s military orders. Lee's "if practical" for example. We do need to be careful to remember how we'd write today, including writing a modern military order, isn't necessarily the same as how someone might have written to give the same instructions 160 years ago.

I read Pemberton suggesting withdrawal and Davis responding by explaining the importance of Vicksburg and Port Hudson to be an implied order not to withdraw. "At all costs" is something of a moot point. Not "holding at all costs" meant evacuation before Grant invested the place.

Congrats! Was the application process simple?

It was.

Submission Guidelines - Emerging Civil War

emergingcivilwar.com

 

[tony_gunter]

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, word count constrained me from citing examples.

I haven't quite gotten to analyzing Johnston's operations after May 17, but I will say that it would be very hard to organize, equip, train, and sustain a five division (4 Inf/1 Cav) army in 30 days.
I know many criticize Johnston for not doing anything to relieve Pemberton, but I've also not seen any opinion on what that operation would have looked like. Just a quick glance at the map tells me that any attempt at relieving Vicksburg would have been a dangerous proposition.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the question.

Remember, Grant didn't have a 40,000 man army at Vicksburg. He had three army corps arranged out of supporting distance of each other, with Pemberton controlling the interior lines.

Briefly, Grant's investing force didn't even cover the roads south out of the city. Later, Lauman pushed inland from the river and began covering Halls Ferry Road.

If Johnston had merely managed to consolidate the units he commmded (Loring, Walker, Gregg, Gist, Maxey) he had a decent chance to at least roll up Lauman and open the Halls Ferry Road. That window probably closed for good a couple weeks after Herron arrived, but that was actually the plan that Johnston proposed when he began marching west in late June. Johnston offered to break open the lines south of the city just long enough for Pemberton to escape with the clothes on his back. But Pemberton thought he could get a better deal from Grant.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the question.

Thank you.

But my thoughts might turn your post into yet another forum argument about Joe Johnston.

I have no desire to derail your thread.