Musician Ages

[kateforhistory]

Wondering about Ages of musicians. How young could they be? I think I read some could be as young as 11 and some lied about their age. Also, I assume such very young men would not be in battle or perhaps were drummers? Thanks for your input.

 

[BrianB]

Yes, field musicians did lie about their ages - sometimes adding several years. There were (in the Union army - I don't have any info for the Confederates) several hundred 13 or younger soldiers (at the time of enlistment) and some thousands of 14 and 15 year olds. There was also a huge spike in 18 year olds who enlisted in the Union army - this spike can be explained by 17 year olds, 16 year olds and maybe some 15 year olds passing themselves off as 18.

Keep in mind, however, that not all fifers/drummers/buglers were juveniles - it was not uncommon to find a man in his 30's, 40's or older serving as musician.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

While you do find field musicians in their teens from time to time, they are the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority were the same approximate age as everyone else. That is to say, early to mid 20s.

 

[RedRover]

 

[John Winn]

One of the CW vets I researched at the cemetery where I volunteered lied about his age to enlist (he was 14) and was originally assigned to a regiment as a drummer. However, according to the vet in his pension file, that regiment already had all the drummers they wanted and so they transferred him to another regiment and they just put him in with the infantry. He was wounded twice during the war.

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

The infamous Thomas C. Dula (Tom Dooley) was a drummer in Co.K 42nd NC. Enlisted at 17.

National Archives NextGen Catalog

The online portal to the records held at the National Archives, and information about those records.

catalog.archives.gov

 

[4thMichigan]

A good friend of mine, Dennis Keesee, wrote a really great book back in 2001, entitled "Too Young to Die". It shared the stories of many of those younger musicians who had served in the Union Army during the Civil War and the book is well worth owning. I honestly say that without any bias based on our friendship, but as one who has read it and found it very interesting and enjoyable. Here's the link to it on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Too-Young-Die-Soldiers-1861-1865/dp/1885033281?tag=civilwartalkc-20
After he had the book published, Dennis had come to Ann Arbor, Michigan, to give a presentation on the topic and to offer signed copies of the book. That same year, Ed Bearss also gave a presentation for the same group. Many people said that they enjoyed the presentation given by Dennis, as much as, if not more than, Ed's. To me, that says a lot. Pick up the book, you'll be glad you did.

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

Calvin C. Miller: Born in Wilkes County, NC about 1830. Residence Watauga County NC; a 24-year-old Farmer when he enlisted on 9/14/1861 at Watauga County, NC as a Private. On 11/20/1861 he mustered into "B" Co. NC 37th Infantry. Musician 2/15/1862. POW 5/27/1862 Hanover Court House, VA. Exchanged 8/5/1862 Aiken's Landing, VA. Returned 10/15/1862. POW 5/3/1863 Chancellorsville, VA. Exchanged 5/13/1863 City Point, VA. Returned 8/15/1863. Voluntarily surrendered 2/16/1865. Transferred 2/21/1865 Washington, DC after taking the Oath of Allegiance. Died 21 May 1893 at Deep Gap, Watauga County, North Carolina. The only one of the brothers to remain in North Carolina. In a newspaper article, one of his grandsons stated Calvin ended the war "without a scratch on him, after being captured three times".

 

[Claude Bauer]

Also, people "grew up faster" in the 1800s. The average life expectancy was only 39-42 years, so by the time they were 20 they only had about 10 years of adulthood left. Most Civil War combatants and musicians were what we would call teenagers or young adults. The romantic image of the little drummer boy was popular, as it juxtaposed the innocence of childhood against the horrors of war, but there were actually few children (by their standards) in the war. I've read that even before the war, a family could enlist a boy of 12 as a musician in the Union army, and they would let him keep $1 of his pay and send the rest home to his family. Doesn't sound like much to us, but if a family could receive a steady income of $10 - $11 a month from their son's service pay, that was a big deal in those days when soldiers were paid about $12 - $13 a month.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Also, people "grew up faster" in the 1800s. The average life expectancy was only 39-42 years, so by the time they were 20 they only had about 10 years of adulthood left. Most Civil War combatants and musicians were what we would call teenagers or young adults. The romantic image of the little drummer boy was popular, as it juxtaposed the innocence of childhood against the horrors of war, but there were actually few children (by their standards) in the war. I've read that even before the war, a family could enlist a boy of 12 as a musician in the Union army, and they would let him keep $1 of his pay and send the rest home to his family. Doesn't sound like much to us, but if a family could receive a steady income of $10 - $11 a month from their son's service pay, that was a big deal in those days when soldiers were paid about $12 - $13 a month.

While a lot of your main point is still true, life expectancy factors in the incredible infant mortality rate back then. If someone reached the age of 20 (or even 5 as the graphs indicate), they could reasonably expect to reach 60.

 

[thomas aagaard]

just a note.
Using children as musicians was part of European military culture.
A statue (very centrally in Copenhagen) of one from the 3 year war in 1848-50. A civil war within the danish wholestate, that in 48-49 also involved Prussia and some of the smaller German states.

Also of the 3 year war. In this case a musician in a "jäger" battalion

The danish army was based on mandatory military service with the officers and cadre of NCOs being professionals... often serving basically for life. It was common for boys aged 12 (officially) to join as musicians, becoming corporals around age 16, and functioning as PT teachers and swimming teaches and similar.
And then often sergeants at 18-20.
And finally a few years later "commandersergeant" that where doing the exact same job as a LT, commanding a 50 man platoon.


And in the US the same was the case.
Augustus Meyers served for 10 years. Joining the Regulars army in the 1854 aged 12 and 8 month...
And later served in the regulars during the war.

Ten years in the ranks, U.S. Army

www.gutenberg.org

 

[Claude Bauer]

just a note.
Using children as musicians was part of European military culture.
A statue (very centrally in Copenhagen) of one from the 3 year war in 1848-50. A civil war within the danish wholestate, that in 48-49 also involved Prussia and some of the smaller German states.

View attachment 512136
Also of the 3 year war. In this case a musician in a "jäger" battalion
View attachment 512137

The danish army was based on mandatory military service with the officers and cadre of NCOs being professionals... often serving basically for life. It was common for boys aged 12 (officially) to join as musicians, becoming corporals around age 16, and functioning as PT teachers and swimming teaches and similar.
And then often sergeants at 18-20.
And finally a few years later "commandersergeant" that where doing the exact same job as a LT, commanding a 50 man platoon.


And in the US the same was the case.
Augustus Meyers served for 10 years. Joining the Regulars army in the 1854 aged 12 and 8 month...
And later served in the regulars during the war.

Ten years in the ranks, U.S. Army

www.gutenberg.org

Understood, it was Meyers I was thinking about, but as you note, they were considered "boys" at the time knowing they would soon hit puberty, at which point they'd be considered young men. Most youngsters in that era had already seen years of hard work and physical exertion by the time they were 12, especially if they grew up on a farm, and the nation was predominantly rural at the time. The concept of "teenager" emerged in the mid 20th century, and prior to that, there was a more direct transition from childhood to adulthood--like I said, they grew up faster. It's a matter of semantics, and don't really want to get into splitting hairs, but a 12-year old in the 1800s, whether you call him a boy or a child, was probably going to get married within 5-6 years and start raising a family. Also, I'm not sure about the assertion that anyone who reached 20 could reasonably expect to see 60 back then. There's ample historical evidence that people grew up faster back in the day and didn't live as long as we do, and that held true for a very long time depending on where you live. For example, I recall hearing a Russian in the old Soviet Union reacting with surprise at the notion that American's retired in their 60's. "We're dead by then," he said. And that was in the late 20th century.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Understood, it was Meyers I was thinking about, but as you note, they were considered "boys" at the time knowing they would soon hit puberty, at which point they'd be considered young men. Most youngsters in that era had already seen years of hard work and physical exertion by the time they were 12, especially if they grew up on a farm, and the nation was predominantly rural at the time. The concept of "teenager" emerged in the mid 20th century, and prior to that, there was a more direct transition from childhood to adulthood--like I said, they grew up faster. It's a matter of semantics, and don't really want to get into splitting hairs, but a 12-year old in the 1800s, whether you call him a boy or a child, was probably going to get married within 5-6 years and start raising a family. Also, I'm not sure about the assertion that anyone who reached 20 could reasonably expect to see 60 back then. There's ample historical evidence that people grew up faster back in the day and didn't live as long as we do, and that held true for a very long time depending on where you live. For example, I recall hearing a Russian in the old Soviet Union reacting with surprise at the notion that American's retired in their 60's. "We're dead by then," he said. And that was in the late 20th century.

At the bottom of the link you provided you can toggle the graph by age for men and women. The data for both men and women shows pretty clearly that 40 was the life expectancy "from birth", which skews the data for those who survive past birth.

 

[Claude Bauer]

At the bottom of the link you provided you can toggle the graph by age for men and women. The data for both men and women shows pretty clearly that 40 was the life expectancy "from birth", which skews the data for those who survive past birth.

Thanks for the clarification! I didn't mean to overstate it and wasn't saying no one made it to 60 years of age. For example, we did a grave marking Sunday for a Civil War veteran who lived to 97 and died in 1938!

 

[Reconstructed Rebel]

View attachment 511436

One 14 year old's explanation for why his mother allowed him to join a company in 1862 -

I had been expelled from the Orange county grammar school because the principal was impudent to me, and my last recollection of the Fitchburg high school is being told by Miss Anna Haskell, rather maliciously I thought at the time, that I had not passed in geometry. I had even run away from home once, gone to Boston, bought of William V. Spencer on credit some portraits of war generals, and worked my way on foot to Randolph, Vt., selling these pictures and a few little Yankee notions and sleeping at farm houses along the way. On one occasion my mother had got ready to take me to the reform school at Westboro, and I remember standing by the table in the sitting-room waiting for her to start with me, fingering a gold dollar in my pocket and planning how to elude her in Worcester and get to Boston and go to sea. She relented and did not take me, but I can see how it was a relief to her to have me really in the army, under authority that could control me, with the responsibility off her mind.
Source: pages 18-19

A little fifer's war diary, with 17 maps, 60 portraits, and 246 other illustrations; : Bardeen, C. W. (Charles William), 1847-1924 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

329 p. 24 cm

archive.org

 

[Claude Bauer]

One 14 year old's explanation for why his mother allowed him to join a company in 1862 -

I had been expelled from the Orange county grammar school because the principal was impudent to me, and my last recollection of the Fitchburg high school is being told by Miss Anna Haskell, rather maliciously I thought at the time, that I had not passed in geometry. I had even run away from home once, gone to Boston, bought of William V. Spencer on credit some portraits of war generals, and worked my way on foot to Randolph, Vt., selling these pictures and a few little Yankee notions and sleeping at farm houses along the way. On one occasion my mother had got ready to take me to the reform school at Westboro, and I remember standing by the table in the sitting-room waiting for her to start with me, fingering a gold dollar in my pocket and planning how to elude her in Worcester and get to Boston and go to sea. She relented and did not take me, but I can see how it was a relief to her to have me really in the army, under authority that could control me, with the responsibility off her mind.
Source: pages 18-19

A little fifer's war diary, with 17 maps, 60 portraits, and 246 other illustrations; : Bardeen, C. W. (Charles William), 1847-1924 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

329 p. 24 cm

archive.org

Thanks, will have to check that out! Sounds like he was certainly growing up fast!

 

[East Tennessee Roots]

National Archives NextGen Catalog

The online portal to the records held at the National Archives, and information about those records.

catalog.archives.gov

Confederate Larkin Waitstill Livingston 21-year-old drummer, Company F 62nd NC. He was captured at the surrender of Cumberland Gap and survived Camp Douglass.

Larkin Waitstill Livingston (1840-1923) - Find a...

Son of Rev. Cornelius C. and Nancy Brown Livingston [Information provided by FAG Contributor] Knoxville Journal & Tribune Monday April 16 1923 I W Livingston, 82, died at the home of his daughter, Mrs. G W Ruble at Blainsville at 11 o'clock Saturday night. The funeral will be...

www.findagrave.com

One Of The Last Confederate Drummer-Boys | Other Soldiers, Politicians, & Men

Martin Delphos Luther was one of, if not the last surviving Confederate Drummer-Boy when he died in 1925. He was born on October 25, 1845, the ninth child born to John and Lucinda Jones Luther in Buncombe County NC. He enlisted on 1/1/1864 at Buncombe County, NC as a Private into "I" Co. NC...

civilwartalk.com

Reluctant Rebs & "Homegrown Yanks": East Tennesseans in the Civil War | Regimental Histories

Brigadier-General John Crawford Vaughn was born in Grayson county, Va., February 24, 1824. His family soon after moved to Tennessee and settled in Monroe county, where his youth and early manhood were passed. As soon as he was old enough to be elected to an office, he was chosen to a position...

civilwartalk.com

 

[thomas aagaard]

, but a 12-year old in the 1800s, whether you call him a boy or a child, was probably going to get married within 5-6 years and start raising a family.

Was that the case in the US?
In Denmark most did not marry until the midt to late 20ties, because if living in a village you basically had to wait for your parents to reach a age where you could take over the farm.

And if not a farmer, you needed to learn a craft, and finish your apprenticeship... and get a position that was secure.
(And then aged 22 you had to serve in the army for 1½ years. something that was obviously not the case in the US except during the civil war)

There's ample historical evidence that people grew up faster back in the day and didn't live as long as we do,

On the other hand, The Danes, Prussians and others did not call up the young men until aged 22, because they where not fully grown until then. Today most western armies have a lower age limit of 18, and some even allow some sort of service before that.
And I was called up at age 20. (mostly because that usually fits when the young men finish high school)

(and back in the 1810s the danish army prefer to recruit men aged 26 who would then serve until their late 30ties.. since younger men where seen as less robust)

And in many places the age where you legally get to vote and similar have gone down and down over time.

So one one hand I fully agree that young people that we today would consider children or teenagers where rather adult back then.
But in some areas the opposite is the case.

 

[Claude Bauer]

Wondering about Ages of musicians. How young could they be? I think I read some could be as young as 11 and some lied about their age. Also, I assume such very young men would not be in battle or perhaps were drummers? Thanks for your input.

Here are some pictures of Civil Musicians, including field music, regimental bands, and camp music. There's a range of ages, including what we would call children, teenagers, and young adults, as well as older men:

 

[Dan Kohli]

Was that the case in the US?
In Denmark most did not marry until the midt to late 20ties, because if living in a village you basically had to wait for your parents to reach a age where you could take over the farm.

And if not a farmer, you needed to learn a craft, and finish your apprenticeship... and get a position that was secure.
(And then aged 22 you had to serve in the army for 1½ years. something that was obviously not the case in the US except during the civil war)


On the other hand, The Danes, Prussians and others did not call up the young men until aged 22, because they where not fully grown until then. Today most western armies have a lower age limit of 18, and some even allow some sort of service before that.
And I was called up at age 20. (mostly because that usually fits when the young men finish high school)

(and back in the 1810s the danish army prefer to recruit men aged 26 who would then serve until their late 30ties.. since younger men where seen as less robust)

And in many places the age where you legally get to vote and similar have gone down and down over time.

So one one hand I fully agree that young people that we today would consider children or teenagers where rather adult back then.
But in some areas the opposite is the case.

The U.S. Army at that time preferred recruiting men over the age of 21, but generally they were willing to go as low as 18. Anyone younger had to ether get permission from their parents, or lie about their age.