Most Underrated General

[wilber6150]

Wilber,
Charleston Mercury was the newspaper organ of the opposition to the Confederacy, alongside Pollard's. Yet, the newspaper went uncensored. Strange the fact that the protesters of censorship went uncensored. Something fishy here.
At second, from what book or article comes the excerpt? Pray tell me, because I really want to learn.

But the writ can be suspended only when Congress decides it. Lincoln did it alone, Congress had not voted on the subject

If you have evidence and sources to offer for your statements, just refer to them.
Civil War Scholar.

You have shown no willingess to learn from others and are constatnly trying to paint the South as the perfect little haven of civil rights democracy while painting the North as a evil empire.. Try researching what happened to people or news papers who took a stand against slavery they were either run out of the state, or killed..Congress was not in session when Lincoln first called for the writ to be suspended and that was only in a limited area, and later they did it themselves in a much broader area. Until you get rid of your bias and apporach this subject with a open mind and realize that there was good and bad on both sides you will never learn...

 

[ole]

Wilber,
Charleston Mercury was the newspaper organ of the opposition to the Confederacy, alongside Pollard's. Yet, the newspaper went uncensored. Strange the fact that the protesters of censorship went uncensored. Something fishy here.

Robert Barnwell Rhett, Sr. would be very surprised that he was in the opposition.

 

[M E Wolf]

Not sure. We see Chamberlain lavishly praised for his work at the other end of the Union line, despite his rank being beneath Greene's.

Greene deserves more attention than Sedgewick, IMO.

Not that Sedgewick's accomplishments are unpraiseworthy, but Greene's stand did more to save the Union line than Sedgewick's march.

Elennsar,

In flipping through the O.R.s, L. Joshua Chamberlain is mentioned very little. The commanders over Col. L. J. Chamberlain observing him under fire made more 'fuss' about Chamberlain, as the 20th Maine held the wing and used good sense to save that end of the line. Being he was a citizen soldier and all, it seemed to impress the West Pointers.

That said. I cannot help if we (in a general sense) know more about Colonel/General Chamberlain because of the mention in "The Killer Angles" and in the movies "Gettysburg" and "Gods and Generals." Can we (in a general sense) attribute the fame of General Chamberlain by how he interacted with General Gordon at the surrendering at Appomattox. Both Chamberlain and Gordon picked by their famous commanders, Grant and Lee respectively, perhaps understanding the power of "Citizen Soldiers" verses professional would have a better effect.

The post war stories published via Southern Historical Society, Under Both Flags, memoirs`, etc., helped with the public's knowledge of these two Generals - Gordon and Chamberlain?

There were so many heroes in the Civil War--on both sides. Perhaps more than we'll ever know as their deeds went unnoticed or unpublished. Only God knows and us students of history are left in a limbo state of 'wondering.'

Without criteria to begin to judge from, its a true toss up as in the many criteria posed, that many more generals could be considered.

General Greene does deserve the praise and recognition as you stated. No question! The sadness is how many others like Greene have been in perpetual shadows?...

Just some thoughts and opinions.

M. E. Wolf

 

[wilber6150]

Wilber,
Charleston Mercury was the newspaper organ of the opposition to the Confederacy, alongside Pollard's. Yet, the newspaper went uncensored. Strange the fact that the protesters of censorship went uncensored. Something fishy here.
At second, from what book or article comes the excerpt? Pray tell me, because I really want to learn.

But the writ can be suspended only when Congress decides it. Lincoln did it alone, Congress had not voted on the subject

If you have evidence and sources to offer for your statements, just refer to them.
Civil War Scholar.

Robert Barnwell Rhett, Sr. would be very surprised that he was in the opposition.

Exactly just a short wiki check brings this up...

When South Carolina passed (1852) an ordinance that merely declared a state's right to secede, Rhett resigned his U.S. Senate seat. He continued to express his fiery secessionist sentiments through theCharleston Mercury, edited by his son, Robert Barnwell Rhett, Jr.

During the 1860 presidential campaign, a widely credited report in the Nashville Patriot said that Rhett, along with William Lowndes Yancey and William Porcher Miles, was a leader of a Southern conspiracy to end the Union that began in May 1858 with a plan, hatched at the Southern Convention in Montgomery, Alabama, in May 1858, to split the Democratic Party along Northern and Southern lines.[3]

Rhett was a member of the South Carolina Secession Convention in 1860. In the Montgomery Convention which met to organize a provisional government for the seceding states, he was one of the most active delegates and was chairman of the committee which reported the Confederate Constitution.

Subsequently he was elected a member of the lower house of the Confederate Congress. He received no higher office in the Confederate government and returned to South Carolina, where he sharply criticized the policies of Confederate President Jefferson Davis of Mississippi.

After the end of the War, he settled in Louisiana. While it was rumored that he was a delegate to theDemocratic National Convention in 1868, that was in fact his son, Robert Rhett, Jr., who had shared his father's editorship responsibilities.

Rhett died in St. James Parish near New Orleans. He is interred at Magnolia Cemetery in Charleston, South Carolina.

Far from being against the government he was a leading secessionist and member of the Confederate Congress, and yet was talking about censorship...

 

[ole]

Exactly just a short wiki check brings this up...

Far from being against the government he was a leading secessionist and member of the Confederate Congress, and yet was talking about censorship...

Which is where I double-checked. Our scholar seems to have missed that in claiming that the Mercury was in opposition to secession.

Flights of fancy.

 

[cash]

Which is where I double-checked. Our scholar seems to have missed that in claiming that the Mercury was in opposition to secession.

Flights of fancy.

It's what happens when one simply makes things up on the fly.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Robert Barnwell Rhett, Sr. would be very surprised that he was in the opposition.

Ole, here is what I found on Rhett and the Confederacy: "Subsequently he was elected a member of the lower house of the Confederate Congress. He received no higher office in the Confederate government and returned to South Carolina, where he sharply criticized the policies of Confederate President Jefferson Davis of Mississippi." This comes from Wikipedia. Rhett was in fact member of the opposition to Jefferson Davis, as the source says.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[wilber6150]

Ole, here is what I found on Rhett and the Confederacy: "Subsequently he was elected a member of the lower house of the Confederate Congress. He received no higher office in the Confederate government and returned to South Carolina, where he sharply criticized the policies of Confederate President Jefferson Davis of Mississippi." This comes from Wikipedia. Rhett was in fact member of the opposition to Jefferson Davis, as the source says.
Civil War Scholar.

Opposition to Davis is not the same as opposition to the Confederacy, there were hundreds of papers whose editorials were in opposition to Lincoln yet they stayed in business.. And you are avoiding the question of censureship of anything in opposition to slavery in the South befroe the war, or to the Confederacy during the war..

 

[dlofting]

Elennsar,

In flipping through the O.R.s, L. Joshua Chamberlain is mentioned very little. The commanders over Col. L. J. Chamberlain observing him under fire made more 'fuss' about Chamberlain, as the 20th Maine held the wing and used good sense to save that end of the line. Being he was a citizen soldier and all, it seemed to impress the West Pointers.

That said. I cannot help if we (in a general sense) know more about Colonel/General Chamberlain because of the mention in "The Killer Angles" and in the movies "Gettysburg" and "Gods and Generals." Can we (in a general sense) attribute the fame of General Chamberlain by how he interacted with General Gordon at the surrendering at Appomattox. Both Chamberlain and Gordon picked by their famous commanders, Grant and Lee respectively, perhaps understanding the power of "Citizen Soldiers" verses professional would have a better effect.

The post war stories published via Southern Historical Society, Under Both Flags, memoirs`, etc., helped with the public's knowledge of these two Generals - Gordon and Chamberlain?

There were so many heroes in the Civil War--on both sides. Perhaps more than we'll ever know as their deeds went unnoticed or unpublished. Only God knows and us students of history are left in a limbo state of 'wondering.'

Without criteria to begin to judge from, its a true toss up as in the many criteria posed, that many more generals could be considered.

General Greene does deserve the praise and recognition as you stated. No question! The sadness is how many others like Greene have been in perpetual shadows?...

Just some thoughts and opinions.

M. E. Wolf

I think "The Twentieth Maine" by John J Pullen may have played a role in Chamberlain's popularity. The book was published in a Reader's Digest Condensed version, which may have given it a wider circulation than most non-fiction books on the Civil War, and introduced Chamberlain to a larger audience.

 

[dlofting]

Charleston Mercury was the newspaper organ of the opposition to the Confederacy, alongside Pollard's. Yet, the newspaper went uncensored. Strange the fact that the protesters of censorship went uncensored. Something fishy here.

In this post you say that the Charleston Mercury was the newspaper organ of the opposition to the Confederacy.

Ole, here is what I found on Rhett and the Confederacy: "Subsequently he was elected a member of the lower house of the Confederate Congress. He received no higher office in the Confederate government and returned to South Carolina, where he sharply criticized the policies of Confederate President Jefferson Davis of Mississippi." This comes from Wikipedia. Rhett was in fact member of the opposition to Jefferson Davis, as the source says.

In this post you say that Robert Barnwell Rhett was a member of the opposition to Jefferson Davis.

There is a big difference between the two, particularly in time of war.....opposition to the Confederacy could be considered treason and would definitely be subject to censorship. Opposition to an elected president and his policies is normal in a democracy, even one at war, and would therefore not usually be subject to censorship

I've taken the liberty to quote a post by Unionblue which I think does a good job of describing the opposition to Jefferson Davis.

"...Rhett saw the early signs of a division into dominant Davis and anti-Davis factions, lines that would cut across almost all other allegiances and cast an increasing influence on positions on even the most important issues except support for the war itself. "What a pity--these men have brought old hatreds & grudges & spites from the old Union," James Chesnut's wife, Mary, said in disgust as far back as February 28. "Already we see they will willingly injure our cause to hurt Jeff Davis." When Davis seemed--and it was only a perception, not a fact--to favor Breckinridge Democrats in the growing number of patronage offices he had to fill, the loquacious but lightweight editor J. D. B. DeBow added his voice, complaining in August that "appointments under the new regime will be governed by the same political considerations as in the old one," and that "parties will form & are forming in the same way & party hacks will take the lead." As the government was leaving to move to Richmond, a Montgomery editor protested in print that "it seems that secession has been accomplished merely to make offices for aspiring Democrats." The editor, of course, had been a Whig. It was only one of many lines that became an increasing obsession of the Mercury as its owners pursued their personal resentments and disappointments in print. Mary Chesnut in October 1861 observed with no attempt to conceal her dismay that "if the Confederacy had chosen to elect Barnwell Rhett president instead of Jefferson Davis we might have escaped one small war, at least--the war the Mercury was now waging with the administration."

From the book, Look Away!: A History of the Confederate States of American, by William C. Davis, chapter 13, "Growlers & Traitors," pg. 368-369.

Unionblue

 

[IcarusPhoenix]

...he sharply criticized the policies of Confederate President Jefferson Davis of Mississippi." This comes from Wikipedia. Rhett was in fact member of the opposition to Jefferson Davis...

Yeah, so was Alexander Stephens, who was the Vice President; What in the world is your point?

 

[M E Wolf]

Please get back on who is/was the Most Underrated General

Revive some old thread on Jefferson Davis or start a new topic thread. Every time a different topic is discussed it derails the original intent of the original poster.

No more warnings or niceties.

M. E. Wolf
POSTED IN THE CAPACITY OF MODERATOR
Aug. 22, 2014 3:23 a.m.

 

[Elennsar]

So. Someone I don't personally think is underrated, but I do want to throw out to see how others feel:

http://www.rocemabra.com/~roger/tagg/generals/general58.html
This guy.

I think he was solid and reliable as a division commander, and his record as a corps commander doesn't seem too bad - but I don't think he's been denied credit for anything he did right or given excessive criticism for what he didn't.

But that's me. I might be missing something.

 

[ole]

Sorry, M.E. I do tend to get derailed when blatant stupidity is posted. I can't promise it won't happen again.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

One of the most underrated Confederate generals is Harry Thompson Hays, a son of Louisiana.
When Louisiana seceded and joined the Confederate States of America, Hays enlisted in the army and was elected as colonel of the 7th Louisiana Infantry. He fought at First Manassas under Jubal Early, another good and great Confederate officer.
While General Jackson was conducting his brilliant Valley Campaign, Hays was there, at the head of his regiment, under General Richard Taylor. Hays was wounded at the Battle of Port Republic, during the fierce Confederate assault that occupied the Coaling and forced the Yankees to retreat again.
Upon recovering from his wound, Hays took command of Taylor's old brigade, named the "Louisiana Tigers", in honor of Major Roberdeau Wheat and his gallant battalion. Hays' men exhibited a gallantry equal to Wheat's. They fought at the battle of Sharpsburg, in Lawton's division, which was commanded by Early for most of the battle. Hays' Louisianians also distinguished themselves at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville.
At Gettysburg, on the second day, Hays' troops charged at Cemetery Hill and nearly took the position. Nevertheless, no support was brought for them and the heroic Tigers finally withdrew, having earned the admiration of friend and foe alike.
Hays fought gallantly at the Battle of the Wilderness, stopping all the advances the Yankees made against them. At the Battle of Spotsylvania, Hays was wounded by a shell fragment.
When he recovered, he was sent in his state, Louisiana, to command the defenses there, but saw no significant role.

General Harry Thompson Hays, CSA, I salute you!
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

One of the most underrated Confederate generals is Harry Thompson Hays, a son of Louisiana.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And, of course, you have nothing to say about Hays himself.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

And, of course, you have nothing to say about Hays himself.
Civil War Scholar.

In this thread, which is talking about underrated generals? No, I don't.

 

[Jamieva]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It doesn't apply to union generals

 

[Civil War Scholar]

It doesn't apply to union generals

Jamieva, if you want to show us that there are many underrated Union generals(what I don't doubt), pick some of them and inform us. Don't just criticize me on picking Confederate generals.
Civil War Scholar.