Most Underrated General

[IcarusPhoenix]

...do they give the full strength of the 102th Pennsylvania or just the detachment that went to the battle?

I also don't yet have an actual copy, regrettably; I'm getting those figures from a citation of the '03 edition.

 

[Elennsar]

I also don't yet have an actual copy, regrettably; I'm getting those figures from a citation of the '03 edition.

No worries.

So that leaves us with Lee having lost approaching, if not over, a third of his army. In one battle.

Fredericksburg for Burnside is maybe one in ten? If Lee gets credit for winning there, Meade did at least as much to beat Lee at Gettysburg.

 

[diane]

IMO you've got the wrong battle. The ANV wasn't the same after Chancellorsville. The rank and file or Lee simply didn't figure this out until after Gettysburg.

I agree. Chancellorsville was a Pyrrhic victory, one of those where one thinks any more victories like that and we'll have to surrender! I'm a bit of a renegade, too, as to Gettysburg being the much-vaulted turning point of the war. I think that came sooner.

 

[Elennsar]

I tend to think Gettysburg ended the Confederacy's chances of winning by , well, winning, as opposed to somehow deflecting enough Union blows that the Union stopped trying.

Vicksburg was an example of how unviable that strategy was, but it was not in and of itself the summer's worst blow.

 

[101combatvet]

Yet, the Army of Northern Virginia still won many resounding victories.
Civil War Scholar.

Cold Harbor?

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Cold Harbor?

101Combatvet,
Battles like Mine Run, Wilderness, Spotsylvania are Confederate victories, at least tactically. General Lee always inflicted horrendous losses to the Yankees and suffered less than half. Cold Harbor was a triumph, where he inflicted 13000 casualties and suffered less than 1500.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

One of the most underrated Generals is William Dorsey Pender, a son of North Carolina.
Pender's Confederate military career began in 1861, when he was elected colonel of the 3rd (consolidated with the 13th) North Carolina Infantry.
He first saw combat on May 31, 1862, at the field of Seven Pines. So impressed with his bravery and skill in battle President Davis that promoted him personally to Brigadier General.
During the Seven Days' Battles, Pender fought gallantly and aggressively, being wounded at Glendale. He also fought at Cedar Mountain, arriving with the rest of General A.P. Hill's division on time to crush Banks' resistance and at Second Manassas, where, defending Stony Ridge from the waves of the Yankee attacks, he was again wounded.
He took part at the Battle of Harpers Ferry and later the Battle of Sharpsburg, where he, again under A.P. Hill, saved the day for their country, crumbling Burnside's lines and forcing him to flee to the other bank of the Antietam Creek.
At Fredericksburg, he was again wounded in his arm, but remained with his men, even bleeding and painful.
At Chancellorsville, he participated in the great flank attack launched by Stonewall Jackson. After the great general was wounded and A.P. Hill succeeded him temporarily, Pender took command of the "Light Division", a command he resumed until the end of the battle.
When A.P. Hill was promoted as commander of the Third Corps, Pender received a promotion as division commander. General Lee wrote about him to President Davis: "Pender is an excellent officer, attentive, industrious and brave; has been conspicuous in every battle, and, I believe, wounded in almost all of them".
At Gettysburg, on the first day, Pender's division helped drive the Yankees from Seminary Ridge and from the very town of Gettysburg. On the next day, Pender's and Richard H. Anderson's divisions attacked the Union positions on the Cemetery Hill and Cemetery Ridge, respectively. During the assault, General Pender was wounded in the thigh by a shell fragment. The wounded generals was forced to turn over command and stop fighting. He was evacuated to the city of Staunton, Virginia. On July 18, 1863, after the amputation of his wounded leg, General Pender died. Upon learning about his death, General Lee wrote: "The loss of Major-General Pender is severely felt by the army and the country. He served with this army from the beginning of the war, and took a distinguished part in all its engagements. Wounded on several occasions, he never left his command in action until he received the injury that resulted in his death. His promise and usefulness as an officer were only equaled by the purity and excellence of his private life."

General Pender, I salute you!
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Rebforever]

Well done, Civil War Scholar.

 

[wilber6150]

Perhaps, Meade's tardiness can be explained because, tactically, he never achieved a victory at Gettysburg? Meade suffered 23155 casualties at the great battle and Lee suffered just over 20000, as E.B. Long's almanac tells us.
Civil War Scholar.

Your instance on using low ball ball Confederate casualty numbers from one source to try to prove a point is really starting to call into doubt many of your points that you are trying to make...

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Your instance on using low ball ball Confederate casualty numbers from one source to try to prove a point is really starting to call into doubt many of your points that you are trying to make...

Is this posted in capacity as moderator?
Civil War Scholar.

 

[rpkennedy]

101Combatvet,
Battles like Mine Run, Wilderness, Spotsylvania are Confederate victories, at least tactically. General Lee always inflicted horrendous losses to the Yankees and suffered less than half. Cold Harbor was a triumph, where he inflicted 13000 casualties and suffered less than 1500.
Civil War Scholar.

13,000 to 1,500? At least be in the same ball park as reality, please.

R

 

[rpkennedy]

Is this posted in capacity as moderator?
Civil War Scholar.

No, it's something many of us have observed.

R

 

[rbasin]

No, it's something many of us have observed the same thing.

R

Quick question: is there an agreed upon source for casualties? I like using Battles and Leaders for the major battles, as they seem to be consistent. I'm not a fan of Wiki for really much of anything, but numbers are a biggie.

 

[diane]

101Combatvet,
Battles like Mine Run, Wilderness, Spotsylvania are Confederate victories, at least tactically. General Lee always inflicted horrendous losses to the Yankees and suffered less than half. Cold Harbor was a triumph, where he inflicted 13000 casualties and suffered less than 1500.
Civil War Scholar.

The battles of the Overland Campaign were largely draws, with no conclusive winner on either side. The best results would be Grant couldn't defeat Lee and Lee couldn't defeat Grant. Mine Run was also inconclusive - Lee could not regain lost ground but only finish his retreat. The river and bad weather mostly accomplished that. During that campaign all Lee wanted was to get his army out of Pennsylvania and into Virginia where they could lick their wounds.

 

[rpkennedy]

Quick question: is there an agreed upon source for casualties? I like using Battles and Leaders for the major battles, as they seem to be consistent. I'm not a fan of Wiki for really much of anything, but numbers are a biggie.

It depends on the battle. Generally, the Union numbers are pretty clear since they kept much more accurate records. For the Confederates, so many records were lost or not made in the first place, it's often difficult to get a certain number but, based on other records, we can get a general range of numbers. Thomas Livermore's work gives a lot of helpful information and, as a bonus, it's free online.

R

 

[wilber6150]

Is this posted in capacity as moderator?
Civil War Scholar.

No as a long time member, if Im posting as a mod its in red...

 

[Rebforever]

Your instance on using low ball ball Confederate casualty numbers from one source to try to prove a point is really starting to call into doubt many of your points that you are trying to make...

Put your numbers up then. That is all it takes.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

The battles of the Overland Campaign were largely draws, with no conclusive winner on either side. The best results would be Grant couldn't defeat Lee and Lee couldn't defeat Grant. Mine Run was also inconclusive - Lee could not regain lost ground but only finish his retreat. The river and bad weather mostly accomplished that. During that campaign all Lee wanted was to get his army out of Pennsylvania and into Virginia where they could lick their wounds.

You seem to confuse Mine Run with the retreat from Gettysburg. Mine Run was fought in Virginia, not Pennsylvania or Maryland.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[wilber6150]

Put your numbers up then. That is all it takes.

Hes been shown the numbers numerious times from multiple sources and even Foote , so no thats not all it takes...Im suprised you don't remember that since you contributed on the same threads

 

[diane]

You seem to confuse Mine Run with the retreat from Gettysburg. Mine Run was fought in Virginia, not Pennsylvania or Maryland.
Civil War Scholar.

Thanks, you're right! Getting that second cup of coffee... Anyway, I don't think there was a clear Confederate victory all the way to Appomattox. (Cold Harbor excepted. Can't say the Federals didn't get beat there!) Myself, and I happen to like Jeff Davis in many ways, I think he should have dropped the reins and let Lee have his head. I don't agree that Confederate defeat was sealed after Gettysburg, as some do.