Most Underrated General

[Civil War Scholar]

Dear Elennsar,
to quote George Gordon Meade, the very Meade of Gettysburg: "At Gettysburg I never said I won, but Lee was unsuccessful in his attempts to destroy my army". Meade himself confessed that he didn't gain a clear-cut victory at Gettysburg.
Moreover, judging from his performance in other engagements, Meade was not a match for Lee. For instance, at the aftermath of Gettysburg, Meade was in his territory and enjoyed numerical superiority. Lee had to cope with these facts and the fact that his engineers had to build pontoon bridges. Yet, Meade didn't assault and Lee's army entered Virginia, battered, but undefeated.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[diane]

Dear Elennsar,
to quote George Gordon Meade, the very Meade of Gettysburg: "At Gettysburg I never said I won, but Lee was unsuccessful in his attempts to destroy my army". Meade himself confessed that he didn't gain a clear-cut victory at Gettysburg.
Moreover, judging from his performance in other engagements, Meade was not a match for Lee. For instance, at the aftermath of Gettysburg, Meade was in his territory and enjoyed numerical superiority. Lee had to cope with these facts and the fact that his engineers had to build pontoon bridges. Yet, Meade didn't assault and Lee's army entered Virginia, battered, but undefeated.
Civil War Scholar.

If Meade did not win Gettysburg, then Lee lost there. The ANV was clearly defeated - it was never the same army afterwards, and Lee never had another Second Manassas or Chancellorsville after that. Meade's natural caution and the weather prevented him from destroying the ANV as it crossed the river - it was one of those near-run things. There was good reason the soldiers were singing "Carry Me Back to Old Virginny"! It might have been a really terrible tragedy if not for Stuart and Imboden's rear guard actions. The AoP was never the same army after Gettysburg, either. They knew, after that battle, they could defeat Lee.

 

[BillO]

No surprise, for sure. Virginia considered herself the birthplace of the American nation, and her sons the fathers. Davis, in his astoundingly dull tome, made it clear the Confederate cause was the same as the original revolution. If Early made the bricks for Confederate shrines, Davis supplied the mortar!

My dear, dear Diane of course I do agree with the sentiment but it shouldn't be past tense.

 

[Elennsar]

Sure looks like it judging by the difference between its preMeade accomplishments and its record from Gettysburg onward.

 

[Elennsar]

Dear Elennsar,
to quote George Gordon Meade, the very Meade of Gettysburg: "At Gettysburg I never said I won, but Lee was unsuccessful in his attempts to destroy my army". Meade himself confessed that he didn't gain a clear-cut victory at Gettysburg.

Where is that quote from?

Moreover, judging from his performance in other engagements, Meade was not a match for Lee. For instance, at the aftermath of Gettysburg, Meade was in his territory and enjoyed numerical superiority. Lee had to cope with these facts and the fact that his engineers had to build pontoon bridges. Yet, Meade didn't assault and Lee's army entered Virginia, battered, but undefeated.
Civil War Scholar.

Your ignorance is showing.

Go read something credible on the retreat from Gettysburg and the state of the two armies (One Continuous Fight might be the best choice in this regard) before saying Meade was not a match for Lee because he didn't hurl his army to its destruction against Lee (the margin of numerical superiority being fairly slight, for example, is rather important to note).

 

[Ray Ball]

Dear Elennsar,
to quote George Gordon Meade, the very Meade of Gettysburg: "At Gettysburg I never said I won, but Lee was unsuccessful in his attempts to destroy my army". Meade himself confessed that he didn't gain a clear-cut victory at Gettysburg.
Moreover, judging from his performance in other engagements, Meade was not a match for Lee. For instance, at the aftermath of Gettysburg, Meade was in his territory and enjoyed numerical superiority. Lee had to cope with these facts and the fact that his engineers had to build pontoon bridges. Yet, Meade didn't assault and Lee's army entered Virginia, battered, but undefeated.
Civil War Scholar.

Your logic is seriously flawed here, apparently to a lack of information. Meade's AoP was victorious, barely, and battered. They were not in a position to launch an offensive. Meade had barely assumed command at that point and had no time to organize his army prior to Gburg and now had a battered one to but back together. He also bore the responsibility of not leaving Washington exposed in his rear.
Furthermore, Lee's Engineers built makeshift bridges over a rising river. If Meade gets half an Army across and is cut off his numerical superiority, which was not extremely significant for a full assault, would not only have been negated but might have left him in the disadvantage. Lastly, Meade's Engineers were spread out between Gburg and Washington protecting bridges as he was concerned they would be needed if Gburg didn't go well. It would have taken him time to get the bridge trains into position giving Lee time to prepare.

No sensible General would have tried to snatch defeat from the mouth of that victory. Meade played the right card.

 

[BillO]

If Meade did not win Gettysburg, then Lee lost there. The ANV was clearly defeated - it was never the same army afterwards, and Lee never had another Second Manassas or Chancellorsville after that. Meade's natural caution and the weather prevented him from destroying the ANV as it crossed the river - it was one of those near-run things. There was good reason the soldiers were singing "Carry Me Back to Old Virginny"! It might have been a really terrible tragedy if not for Stuart and Imboden's rear guard actions. The AoP was never the same army after Gettysburg, either. They knew, after that battle, they could defeat Lee.

IMO you've got the wrong battle. The ANV wasn't the same after Chancellorsville. The rank and file or Lee simply didn't figure this out until after Gettysburg.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Your logic is seriously flawed here, apparently to a lack of information. Meade's AoP was victorious, barely, and battered. They were not in a position to launch an offensive. Meade had barely assumed command at that point and had no time to organize his army prior to Gburg and now had a battered one to but back together. He also bore the responsibility of not leaving Washington exposed in his rear.
Furthermore, Lee's Engineers built makeshift bridges over a rising river. If Meade gets half an Army across and is cut off his numerical superiority, which was not extremely significant for a full assault, would not only have been negated but might have left him in the disadvantage. Lastly, Meade's Engineers were spread out between Gburg and Washington protecting bridges as he was concerned they would be needed if Gburg didn't go well. It would have taken him time to get the bridge trains into position giving Lee time to prepare.

No sensible General would have tried to snatch defeat from the mouth of that victory. Meade played the right card.

Perhaps, Meade's tardiness can be explained because, tactically, he never achieved a victory at Gettysburg? Meade suffered 23155 casualties at the great battle and Lee suffered just over 20000, as E.B. Long's almanac tells us.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

I think Chancellorsville, alone, did not do it - the cost is high but not impossible.

Gettysburg was more fatal to the brigade level command of the ANV - instead of only four brigadiers after the former (not counting those from reorganization), Lee needed a minimum of eight, and that with Archer and Kemper being counted as "might return".

 

[Civil War Scholar]

I think Chancellorsville, alone, did not do it - the cost is high but not impossible.

Gettysburg was more fatal to the brigade level command of the ANV - instead of only four brigadiers after the former (not o****ing those from reorganization), Lee needed a minimum of eight, and that with Archer and Kemper being counted as "might return".

Yet, the Army of Northern Virginia still won many resounding victories.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[IcarusPhoenix]

Perhaps, Meade's tardiness can be explained because, tactically, he never achieved a victory at Gettysburg? Meade suffered 23155 casualties at the great battle and Lee suffered just over 20000, as E.B. Long's almanac tells us.
Civil War Scholar.

Um, you have absolutely no idea what a "tactical victory" is, do you?

Also, the most reliable casualty figures from Gettysburg, as you've been told before, is Busey and Martin, which also puts Let's casualties at just over 23,000. Indeed, pf all the reputable sources, they are actually the lowest; other sources put them as high as 28,000, and no one who did their research puts them lower than Meade's.

 

[Elennsar]

Yet, the Army of Northern Virginia still won many resounding victories.
Civil War Scholar.

The Army of Northern Virginia's "resounding victories" post Gettysburg pale by comparison to its triumphs before. The sword is not shattered yet, but it is dulling, and the swordsman no longer easily outclassing his opponents.

And you still haven't answered where "At Gettysburg I never said I won, but Lee was unsuccessful in his attempts to destroy my army." is from.

Um, you have absolutely no idea what a "tactical victory" is, do you?

Also, the most reliable casualty figures from Gettysburg, as you've been told before, is Busey and Martin, which also puts Let's casualties at just over 23,000. Indeed, pf all the reputable sources, they are actually the lowest; other sources put them as high as 28,000, and no one who did their research puts them lower than Meade's.

Per Trudeau, who used their (1994) figures for his Gettysburg book:

22,813 out 93,534 for Meade.
22,874 out of 70,226 for Lee.

Just to quote what I have to hand.

 

[Antiquus]

Major General John A. "Black Jack" Logan. Commander of the XV Corps during the Atlanta Campaign, March to the Sea anf the Carolina Campaign. Final commander of the Army of the Tennessee. Logan was Grant's choice to replace Thomas at Nashville had Thomas not moved to attack Hood in December, 1864.

He's the guy in my avatar and also my ancestor. Pretty neat character - total bigot before the war even sponsoring a bill in the Illinois legislature outlawing blacks from settling in Illinois. Faught with Grant and then Sherman, Grant speaks well of him, Sherman less so but still positive, was at Vicksburg and Atlanta, then rejoined Sherman for the march through South Carolina. After the war when he was the candidate for Vice President, apologized to Frederick Douglass for his previous bigotry, explaining the conduct of black troops during the war changed his mind.

 

[rpkennedy]

IMO you've got the wrong battle. The ANV wasn't the same after Chancellorsville. The rank and file or Lee simply didn't figure this out until after Gettysburg.

The battles of Chancellorsville and Gettysburg so close together devastated the army's organization. The loss of regimental and higher officers along with so many veteran soldiers dramatically changed the Army of Northern Virginia.

R

 

[rpkennedy]

Perhaps, Meade's tardiness can be explained because, tactically, he never achieved a victory at Gettysburg? Meade suffered 23155 casualties at the great battle and Lee suffered just over 20000, as E.B. Long's almanac tells us.
Civil War Scholar.

Of course Meade won a tactical and strategic victory at Gettysburg. And I would argue that the pursuit was anything but tardy. There was constant fighting from Gettysburg until Lee crossed the Potomac River. Stuart deserves a lot of credit in managing a brilliant rearguard, allowing Lee to establish a very formidable defensive line until the bridges could be built.

Lee lost a lot more than 20,000 men at Gettysburg, as has been pointed out repeatedly to you.

R

 

[IcarusPhoenix]

Per Trudeau, who used their (1994) figures for his Gettysburg book:

22,813 out 93,534 for Meade.
22,874 out of 70,226 for Lee.

Just to quote what I have to hand.

Their later work kicks those up to 23,055 of 93,921 and 23,231 of 71,699 respectively.

 

[Elennsar]

Their later work kicks those up to 23,055 of 93,921 and 23,231 of 71,699 respectively.

Thanks. I've been meaning to find a way to get a copy of their latest for a while now but my funds are limited.

I know this is a bit off topic, but hopefully mods will forgive me - do they give the full strength of the 102th Pennsylvania or just the detachment that went to the battle?

 

[BillO]

The battles of Chancellorsville and Gettysburg so close together devastated the army's organization. The loss of regimental and higher officers along with so many veteran soldiers dramatically changed the Army of Northern Virginia.

R

IMO Lees' army was pretty well screwed before he crossed the Potomac.

 

[rpkennedy]

IMO Lees' army was pretty well screwed before he crossed the Potomac.

That argument could certainly be made.

R

 

[Jamieva]

Yet, the Army of Northern Virginia still won many resounding victories.
Civil War Scholar.

Disagree with that assesment but it's diverting off topic.