Most Underrated General

MODERATOR'S NOTE....

As I watch another Moderator attempt to keep the entire thread on the original topic "Most Underrated General," I've watched posters conduct what are more like personal conversations that have absolutely nothing to do with the spirit of the thread.... Most Underrated General. But, please--if you want to have a private conversation--take it to the Chat Room or take it into private conversation in the message feature so that the thread or topic isn't derailed.

It would further be appreciated after identifying the "Most Underrated General" please add as to why and if possible, was this particular General's 'underrated' status long term or temporary.

I highly recommend researching the individualized General that is being identified as being "underrated" and including the entire service record of that person/General.

Recommended also, is getting historical 'incidents' accurate. It is unfortunate some have expressed opinion of what historically happened and the actual records/facts/evidence is in conflict. This will start an unnecessary heated exchange when two contrary opinions won't yield to the facts/evidence/records. When proof of facts are demonstrated, the individual who have posted the opinion 'changes' the topic as to divert/deflect. This manipulation must cease from now.

M. E. Wolf
POSTED IN THE CAPACITY OF MODERATOR
Aug. 17, 2014 3:02 p.m.
 
And still he was promoted to Major General when he commanded the Virginia Reserve Forces in 64 ... who knows, maybe that was just a Virginia self esteem thing.

EDIT:

Just re-read a bit into the relevant sections of Kemper's biography, "The Confederacy's Forgotten Son". He enlarged the reserve forces to 5 brigades with about 13000 men in September 64 and continued to recruit more men to the volunteer forces - would warrant a Major General if you ask me.
 
Last edited:
He was
Why do you think Kemper reverted back to brigade command after that, though?

He was temporarily in command of Pickett's division, General Corse took over the command for his brigade, hunton was given command of Pickett's old brigade, Jenkins remained in command of his South Carolina brigade. I think after Pickett returned to duty their were no divisional positions availiable and Kemper never recovered from his wound at Gettysburg, not bad for a man who was more of a politician than a general.
 
He was


He was temporarily in command of Pickett's division, General Corse took over the command for his brigade, hunton was given command of Pickett's old brigade, Jenkins remained in command of his South Carolina brigade. I think after Pickett returned to duty their were no divisional positions availiable and Kemper never recovered from his wound at Gettysburg, not bad for a man who was more of a politician than a general.

Well, and I apologize if I was unclear, he didn't get division command in the attempt to rebuild the army post-Antietam. Seems like someone wasn't as sure of him as his competition.

But yeah, Kemper seems to have been one of the (at a minimum) adequate politicians turned generals.
 
Last edited:
Well, and I apologize if I was unclear, he didn't get division command in the attempt to rebuild the army post-Antietam. Seems like someone wasn't as sure of him as his competition.

But yeah, Kemper seems to have been one of the at least adequate politicians turned generals.

In the wake of Antietam, there were only two division jobs open, Jackson's Division and Ewell's Division. Jubal Early got Ewell's Division and William Taliaferro got Jackson's old Division. Taliaferro was not a West Point man but was a veteran of the Mexican War and had commanded a division in Virginia's militia before the war. And when D.R. Jones died, his division was broken up so there goes another position.

Another possibility is that there simply were no openings in Longstreet's First Corps after Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville and Lee seemed to promote men from within organizations.

R
 
In the wake of Antietam, there were only two division jobs open, Jackson's Division and Ewell's Division. Jubal Early got Ewell's Division and William Taliaferro got Jackson's old Division. Taliaferro was not a West Point man but was a veteran of the Mexican War and had commanded a division in Virginia's militia before the war. And when D.R. Jones died, his division was broken up so there goes another position.
Another possibility is that there simply were no openings in Longstreet's First Corps after Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville and Lee seemed to promote men from within organizations.
R
Just making sure I'm on the same page:

As of the Antietam order of battle we have:

Jackson's Division: Open. Four brigades.
Ewell's Division: Open. Four brigades.
Harvey Hill's Division: Taken . Five brigades.
Light Division: Taken. Six brigades.

McLaws's Division: Taken. Four brigades.
Anderson's Division: Taken (if Anderson recovers, as he did) Six brigades.
D. R. Jones's Division: Taken. Six brigades.

That leaves two brigades under Hood, another two under Walker, and Evans's "independent" brigade.

Pickett gets three of Jones's brigades and one of Anderson's for his division - Freeman refers to it as "the greater part of Longstreet's old division", but compared to the divisions at Antietam it might as well be a new one.

So I'm not sure there's only, if one really wanted to promote Kemper, two openings. Might take some work, but its not as if Pickett is taking either of the divisions without a permanent commander.
 
Just making sure I'm on the same page:

As of the Antietam order of battle we have:

Jackson's Division: Open. Four brigades.
Ewell's Division: Open. Four brigades.
Harvey Hill's Division: Taken . Five brigades.
Light Division: Taken. Six brigades.

McLaws's Division: Taken. Four brigades.
Anderson's Division: Taken (if Anderson recovers, as he did) Six brigades.
D. R. Jones's Division: Taken. Six brigades.

That leaves two brigades under Hood, another two under Walker, and Evans's "independent" brigade.

Pickett gets three of Jones's brigades and one of Anderson's for his division - Freeman refers to it as "the greater part of Longstreet's old division", but compared to the divisions at Antietam it might as well be a new one.

So I'm not sure there's only, if one really wanted to promote Kemper, two openings. Might take some work, but its not as if Pickett is taking either of the divisions without a permanent commander.

That looks right to me.

If Lee wanted Kemper to have a division slot, he could've organized one for him, no doubt. The question is, was Kemper good enough as a division commander to warrant Lee going to such lengths to get him a command?

R
 
That looks right to me.

If Lee wanted Kemper to have a division slot, he could've organized one for him, no doubt. The question is, was Kemper good enough as a division commander to warrant Lee going to such lengths to get him a command?

R

I doubt it. Just thinking on how much such lengths would take and if anyone felt he wasn't up for that (as opposed to say, Longstreet preferring Pickett but not necessarily saying Kemper would fail).

Any writing on why someone should be given a division is less obvious in the post-Antietam promotions than the post-Chancellorsville ones.
 
Here is what Colonel/General M. Sorrel wrote about Kemper:

Recollections of a Confederate Staff Officer (Sorrel)
Chapter IV—Sketches

Brigadier-Generals Elzey and Early—Leaping horses—Confederate uniforms—Ladies at Fairfax Station—Colonel Stuart's Maryland line—Longstreet made Major-General—Sketches of Brigadier-Generals Ewell and Pickett—General Anderson—Major-General Van Dorn—Major-General G. W. Smith—Brigadier Early—Brigadier-General D. R. Jones.

[extensive excerpt]

Longstreet being now a major-general, with three brigades, the new brigadiers are to be introduced. R. S. Ewell took our old brigade. He was a distant relative of mine and one of the strangest of warriors; had served with distinction in Mexico, and all his life against Indians. He was without a superior as a cavalry captain and of the most extraordinary appearance. Bald as an eagle, he looked like one; had a piercing eye and a lisping speech. A perfect horseman and lover of horses (racers), he never tired talking of his horse "Tangent," in Texas, who appears to have never won a race and always to have lost his owner's money. But the latter's confidence never weakened and he always believed in "Tangent." General Ewell became a very distinguished soldier, and justly so. To uncommon courage and activity he added a fine military instinct, which could make him a good second in command in any army. He was not long with us. His fortunes were with Stonewall Jackson in the Valley operations, and he rose to be major-general and lieutenant-general. In the latter rank he commanded the Second Corps at Gettysburg, having previously lost a leg in the second Manassas campaign. His command suffered great loss in the slaughter of Malvern Hill. The morning after, I found him doubled up on the floor of a
little shanty, his head covered up; the ground was covered with our slain. Raising himself he instantly recognized me, and lisped out, "Mather Thorrel, can you tell me why we had five hundred men killed dead on this field yesterday?" That was all; the soul of the brave General was fit to burst for the awful and useless sacrifice. It was a fearful blunder somewhere and has not yet been boldly and clearly lighted up. Kemper, a fine Virginian colonel, succeeded Ewell in command of the Fourth Brigade, and served well until he was left for dead in front of his men in Pickett's charge at Gettysburg.

[end of excerpt]
--------
Early's accounts of Kemper:

Lieutenant General Jubal Anderson Early C.S.A
Chapter III.---Early's Brigade At Manassas.

AT this time the largest organizations in our army were brigades, and each brigade commander received his orders directly from headquarters. Since the conference at Fairfax Station, when General Beauregard stated that his effective strength did not exceed 15,000 men, one regiment, the 1st South Carolina, had been sent off by reason of expiration of term of service, and one regiment, the 7th Louisiana, had joined my brigade. Besides this, General Beauregard's troops had been augmented, since the advance of the enemy, by the arrival of six companies of the 8th Louisiana, the 5th North Carolina State Troops, the 11th North Carolina Volunteers, the 13th Mississippi, three companies of the 49th Virginia and Hampton's South Carolina Legion; the latter containing six companies of infantry. His whole effective force, however, did not probably much exceed the estimate made at the time of the conference, as the measles and typhoid fever, which were prevailing, had reduced very much the strength of the regiments, especially among the Virginia troops which Were entirely new. To reinforce him, Holmes' brigade of two regiments had arrived from Aquia Creek, and Johnston's troops were arriving by the railroad, after much delay by reason of accidents or mismanagement on the part of the railroad officials.

[extensive excerpt]
Very early on the morning of the 21st the enemy opened fire with artillery from the heights on the north of Bull Run near Blackburn 's Ford, and I was ordered to occupy a position in rear of the pine woods north of McLean's house, so as to be ready to support Longstreet or Jones as might be necessary. After being in position some time, I received a request from General Longstreet for one of my regiments to be sent to him, and I sent him the six companies of the 24th Virginia under Lieutenant Colonel Hairston, and two companies of the 7th Louisiana under Major Penn. Not long afterwards I received a request for another regiment, and I carried the remaining eight companies of the 7th Louisiana to Blackburn's Ford, leaving Colonel Kemper with his regiment behind.

[extensive excerpt]

After recrossing to the south side, I sent Kemper's regiment to its former position, and moved with Hays' regiment up the Run to Longstreet's position, as I thought he probably desired its return to him. On reaching Blackburn 's Ford, I found General Longstreet cautiously withdrawing a part of his troops across the Run, and he informed me that he did not now require Hays' regiment, but would retain the companies of the 24th. Hays was then ordered to move down the Run to McLean's Ford and return in that way to the position at which Kemper was, so as to avoid the artillery fire while passing over the direct route.

I rode directly to Kemper's position, and after being there a short time I discovered clouds of dust arising about McLean's Ford, which I supposed to be produced by Jones' brigade returning to its original position. Fearing that Hays' regiment might be mistaken for the enemy and fired upon, I rode rapidly to Jones' position and found some of his men forming in the rifle pits in rear of the ford, while the General was looking with his field glasses at Hays' regiment, which was advancing from the direction of the enemy's position higher up the Run. I informed him what command it was and requested that his men might be cautioned against firing, for which they were preparing.

As soon as this was done, General Jones asked me if I had received an order from General Beauregard, directing that I should go to him with my brigade. Upon my stating that I had received no such order, he said that he had received a note from General Beauregard in which he was directed to send me to the General. The note, which was in the hands of one of Jones' staff officers, was sent for and shown to me. It was in pencil, and after giving brief directions for the withdrawal across the Run and stating the general purpose to go to the left where the heavy firing was, there was a direction at the foot in very nearly these words,--"Send Early to me." This information was given to me some time between 12 M. and 1 P.M.(*)

The note did not state to what point I was to go, but I knew that General Beauregard's position had been near Mitchell's Ford and that he was to be found somewhere to our left. I sent word for Hays to move up as rapidly as possible, directed Kemper to get ready to move, sent a message to General Longstreet requesting the return of the companies of the 24th, and directed my Acting Adjutant General, Captain Gardner, to ride to Mitchell's Ford and ascertain where General Beauregard was, as well as the route I was to pursue.

[extensive excerpt]
Affairs now wore a very gloomy aspect, and from all the indications in the rear the day appeared to be going against us. While General Johnston was speaking to me, quite a squad of men approached us going to the rear, and the General asking them to what regiment they belonged and where going without receiving any satisfactory answer, directed me to make my men charge bayonets and drive them back to the front. I immediately ordered Colonel Kemper to charge them with his regiment, when they commenced making excuses, saying they were sick, or wounded, or had no ammunition. I saw at once there was no fight in them, and I directed Colonel Kemper to move on and not delay battling with such cowards.

[extensive excerpt]

While their regiments were forming by file into line, under the fire of the enemy's sharpshooters, Kemper's regiment commenced moving obliquely to the right towards the woods into which Elzey's troops had been seen to move, and I rode in front and halted it, informing it that there were no troops in the woods, and pointing out the enemy on the crest of the ridge in front. I then rode to the other regiments to direct their movements, when Colonel Kemper, finding the fire of the enemy, who was beyond the range of our smooth bores, very annoying to his men, moved rapidly to the front, to the cover of a fence at the foot of the ridge. As soon as Hays' regiment was formed, I ordered an advance and Hays moved forward until in a line with Kemper, then their two regiments started up the side of the hill. As we advanced the enemy disappeared behind the crest, and while we were ascending the slope Lieutenant McDonald, acting aide to Colonel Elzey, came riding rapidly towards me and requested me not to let my men fire on the troops in my front, stating that they consisted of the 13th Virginia Regiment of Elzey's brigade. I said to him,--"They have been firing on my men," to which he replied, "I know they have, but it is a mistake, I recognize Colonel Hill of the 13th, and his horse." This was a mistake on the part
of Lieutenant McDonald, arising from a fancied resemblance of a mounted officer with the enemy to the Colonel of the 13th. This regiment did not reach the battlefield at all.

This information and the positive assurance of Lieutenant McDonald, however, caused me to halt my troops and ride to the crest of the ridge, where I observed a regiment about two hundred yards to my right drawn up in line in front of the woods where Elzey's left was. The dress of the volunteers on both sides at that time was very similar, and the flag of the regiment I saw was drooping around the staff, so that I could not see whether it was the United States or the Confederate flag. The very confident manner of Lieutenant McDonald, in his statement in regard to the troops in my front, induced me to believe that this must also be one of our regiments.

[end of excerpt]
---------------------------
Chancellorsville And Gettysburg
Appendix B.--Organization of the Army of Northern Virginia, June 1, 1863.
PICKETT'S DIVISION.
MAJOR-GENERAL GEORGE E. PICKETT COMMANDING.
Garnett's Brigade.--Brigadier-General R. B. GARNETT Commanding. 8th Virginia Regiment, Colonel Eppa Hunton; 18th Virginia Regiment, Colonel R. E. Withers; 19th Virginia Regiment. Colonel Henry Gantt; 28th Virginia Regiment, Colonel R. C. Allen; 56th Virginia Regiment, Colonel W. D. Stuart.

Armistead's Brigade.--Brigadier-General L. A. ARMISTEAD Commanding. 9th Virginia Regiment, Lieut.-Colonel J. S. Gilliam; 14th Virginia Regiment. Colonel J. G. Hodges' 38th Virginia Regiment, Colonel E. C. Edmonds; 53d Virginia Regiment, Colonel John Grammer; 57th Virginia Regiment, Colonel J. B. Magruder.

Kemper's Brigade--Brigadier-General J. L. KEMPER Commanding. 1st Virginia Regiment. Colonel Lewis B. Williams, Jr.; 3d Virginia Regiment, Colonel Joseph Mayo, Jr.; 7th Virginia Regiment, Colonel W. T. Patton; 11th Virginia Regiment, Colonel David Funston; 24th Virginia Regiment, Colonel W. R. Terry.

Toombs's Brigade--Brigadier-General R. TOOMBS Commanding. 2d Georgia Regiment, Colonel E. M. Butt; 15th Georgia Regiment, Colonel E. M. DuBose; 17th Georgia Regiment, Colonel W. G. Hodges; 20th Georgia Regiment, Colonel J. B, Cummings.

Corse's Brigade--Brigadier-General M. D. CORSE Commanding. 15th Virginia Regiment. Colonel T. P. August: 17th Virginia Regiment. Colonel Morton Marye; 30th Virginia Regiment, Colonel A. T. Harrison; 32d Virginia Regiment, Colonel E. B. Montague.
============
Confederate Military History, Vol. 3
VIRGINIA
BY MAJ. JED. HOTCHKISS.

Confederate Military History, Vol. 3
Biographical

Major-General James Lawson Kemper was born in Madison county, Va., June 11, 1823, of a family descended from John Kemper, of Oldenburg, who settled in Virginia in 1714, in the "Palatinate Colony." He was educated at the Virginia military institute and Washington college, where he took the degree of master of arts, and his subsequent study of the law was pursued at Charleston, Kanawha county. In 1847 he was commissioned captain in the volunteer army by President Polk, and he joined General Taylor's army after the battle of Buena Vista. Subsequently he became prominent in the political life of the State, and served ten years as a member of the house of delegates, two years as speaker, and for a number of years as chairman of the committee on military affairs. He was also president of the board of visitors of the Virginia military institute. On May 2, 1861, he was commissioned colonel of Virginia volunteers and assigned to the command of the Seventh regiment of infantry. Joining his regiment at Manassas he rendered efficient special service to General Beauregard in procuring him 200 wagons. He was in battle at Blackburn's ford, and on July 21st, assigned to the brigade commanded by Col. Jubal A. Early, he aided in striking the final blow on the extreme left of the Federal line, which immediately preceded the rout of McDowe11's forces. Three days after this battle his regiment was assigned to the brigade commanded by General Longstreet, and subsequently by A. P. Hill, under whom Colonel Kemper, with the Seventh regiment, was in the hottest of the fight at Williamsburg. Immediately after this he was given command of the brigade which had been successively under Longstreet, Ewell and A. P. Hill, and he fought his regiments with distinguished skill and courage during the first day at Seven Pines and throughout the Seven Days' fighting before Richmond. At Frayser's he made a gallant advance over difficult ground, broke the enemy's line and captured a battery. With Longstreet's corps he reached the scene of battle at Manassas, August 29, 1862, and in the subsequent fighting served in command of a division consisting of his own, Jenkins', Pickett's and N. G. Evans' brigades. At South mountain he commanded his brigade, and in conjunction with Garnett, the two commands not exceeding 800 men, met Hatch's force of 3,500 before Turner's Gap. This little force of Confederates performed prodigies of valor, causing General
Doubleday to report that he had engaged 4,000 or 5,000 men under the immediate command of Pickett, and Hooker reported that Hatch, after a "violent and protracted struggle" in which he was "outnumbered and sorely pressed," was reinforced by Christian's brigade, in spite of which the resistance of the enemy was continued until after dark. It was by such self-sacrificing bravery that McClellan's army was delayed until Lee could concentrate at Sharpsburg. In the latter battle he commanded his brigade, also at Fredericksburg, his brigade meanwhile having been assigned to Pickett's division of Virginians. Before the battle of Chancellorsville he was detailed to operate near New Bern, N. C., where he rendered efficient service but fought no important battles. He rejoined Pickett before Suffolk, and marched with him into Pennsylvania. On the third day of the fighting at Gettysburg he led his brigade in the heroic charge upon Cemetery hill. As the division concentrated in making the final assault, Kemper fell desperately wounded, his brother brigadiers, Garnett and Armistead, being killed a few moments later. He was brought off the field, but subsequently fell into the hands of the Federals. After three months' imprisonment and when it seemed unlikely that he would recover, he was exchanged for General Graham, of the United States army. His injuries prevented further service in the field, but his gallant deeds were rewarded by promotion to major-general, and he was given command of the reserve forces of Virginia, until the close of the war. He then returned to Madison county, cultivated his land and resumed the practice of law, also taking an active part in the political movement which resulted in the formation of the Conservative party in Virginia, which he earnestly aided by voice and pen. In this work he was so conspicuous as to be a candidate for elector-at-large for the State in 1872, and in the following year he was nominated and elected governor. He served in this honored position for four years from January 1, 1874. General Kemper died April 7, 1895.

---------------------------------------
http://historum.com/blogs/salah/1188-james-l-kemper-confederate-brigadier.html

"....But it was not to be. Though he suffered from pain in his abdomen for the rest of his life, James Kemper fully recovered from his Gettysburg wound. Too weak to return to duty in the field, he spent the rest of the Civil War commanding the Virginia Reserves. While serving in this capacity, he became a major general in September of 1864. By that date, it was becoming clear that Kemper had suffered his wound for a lost cause.

After the Civil War, James Kemper became a fine example of a 'Reconstructed Rebel'. He returned to his law practice and his interest in politics, and in 1874 he became the first governor of Virginia after the Reconstruction period, a position he held until 1878. Ironically in light of his 'fatal' wound, Kemper was one of the longer-lived Confederate generals, dying in 1895."
--------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_L._Kemper

[excerpt]
At theBattle of Gettysburg, Kemper arrived with Pickett's Division late on the second day of battle, July 2, 1863. His brigade was one of the main assault units inPickett's Charge, advancing on the right flank of Pickett's line. After crossing the Emmitsburg Road, his brigade was hit by flanking fire from twoVermont regiments, driving it to the left and disrupting the cohesion of the assault. Kemper rose on his stirrups to urge his men forward, shouting "There are the guns, boys, go for them!"

This bravado made him a more visible target and he was wounded by a bullet in the abdomen and thigh and captured by Union troops. He was rescued by Sgt. Leigh Blanton of the 1st Virginia[2]and was carried back to Confederate lines onSeminary Ridge. GeneralRobert E. Leeencountered Kemper being carried on a stretcher and inquired about the seriousness of his wound, which Kemper said he thought was mortal. He requested that Lee "do full justice to this division for its work today."[3]During the Confederate Army's retreat from Gettysburg, Kemper was again captured by Union forces. He was exchanged (forCharles K. Graham) on September 19, 1863.[4]For the rest of the war he was too ill for combat, and commanded the Reserve Forces of Virginia. He was promoted tomajor generalon September 19, 1864.

It had not been possible to remove the bullet that had wounded Kemper at Gettysburg, and he suffered from groin pain for the rest of his life. After the war he worked as a lawyer and served as the firstGovernor of Virginiaafter Reconstruction from January 1, 1874, to January 1, 1878 having defeated Republican Robert W. Hughes with 43.84% of the vote. Jones (1972) argues that Kemper and like-minded Conservatives implemented racial policies which were less anti-Negro and which gave fuller recognition than historians have conceded. The VirginiaRedeemersattempted to shape race relations to conform to what C. Vann Woodward has defined as the Conservative philosophy. Jones concludes that Kemper and the Virginia Redeemers deserve to rank in history alongside the Wade Hamptons and other proponents of the Conservative philosophy.[5]

Kemper died in Walnut Hills,Orange County, Virginia, where he is buried.

(No mention as to what he died from or of, e.g. Old age, old wound, etc.)

M. E. Wolf
 
My nomination for underrated general is George Sykes. He wasn't a self-promoter and he didn't have a Congressional patron to promote his interests. He got to his position based on steady performance, but got the shaft when Meade reorganized the Army of the Potomac
 
Name SYKES, George "Tardy George"
Born October 9 1822, Dover DE
Died February 8 1880, Fort Brown TX
Pre-War Profession Graduated West Point 1842, Seminole war, frontier duty, Mexican war.
War Service May 1861 Maj. of 14th US Infantry, First Bull Run, September 1861 appointed Brig. Gen. of Volunteers, commanded Regular Reserve Divn in Peninsula campaign, commanded 2nd Divn/V Corps in Seven Days, Second Bull Run, Antietam, Fredericksburg, November 1862 promoted Maj. Gen. of Volunteers, Chancellorsville, commanded V Corps at Gettysburg, Mine Run, relieved by Meade, commanded Dist of South Kansas.
Brevet Promotions Brig. Gen. U.S.A. March 13 1865, Maj. Gen. U.S.A. March 13 1865.
Post War Career Army service.
Notes
On the Internet General Sykes
Further reading

Reese, Timothy J Sykes' regular infantry division, 1861-1864: a history of regular United States infantry operations in the Civil War's Eastern theater Jefferson NC, McFarland, 1990
 
My nomination for underrated general is George Sykes. He wasn't a self-promoter and he didn't have a Congressional patron to promote his interests. He got to his position based on steady performance, but got the shaft when Meade reorganized the Army of the Potomac

His performance with a corps seems to fall short of anything special, though. Not bad, but not someone I'd be eager to retain.

Why Warren over Sykes, that I don't get. Warren doesn't seem to have had much to boast about with a corps either, and Sykes at least has a credible performance at Gettysburg.

Do you think this is missing anything?
 
His performance with a corps seems to fall short of anything special, though. Not bad, but not someone I'd be eager to retain.

Why Warren over Sykes, that I don't get. Warren doesn't seem to have had much to boast about with a corps either, and Sykes at least has a credible performance at Gettysburg.

Do you think this is missing anything?
Well, I don't think Sykes' performance comes up even to the standard of "credible" at Gettysburg, but that's no fault of his; he was basically a non-entity in that battle, since his corps was basically thrown in piece-meal where needed as they came up to serve under the orders of other generals on their various parts of the field, and they didn't really function as a unit the entire battle. Personally, I'm of the opinion that both Sykes and Warren were competent commanders of the corps; they followed their orders, handled their corps efficiently in the field, communicated with their subordinates well, and were perfectly adequate administrators. While both men lacked was the sort of initiative and/or flamboyance that distinguished some of their fellows, but the Fifth was always a steadfast corps under both.

It is also worth noting that according to a few of his officers, Warren was fairly popular with his men, and they generally resented Sheridan for his removal.
 
Well, I don't think Sykes' performance comes up even to the standard of "credible" at Gettysburg, but that's no fault of his; he was basically a non-entity in that battle, since his corps was basically thrown in piece-meal where needed as they came up to serve under the orders of other generals on their various parts of the field, and they didn't really function as a unit the entire battle.

We do see him order at least part of his corps (Crawford's division) independently of being his corps being fed in to support Sykes, and he seems to have done what he did well enough. But yeah, its not like he had a chance to show what he would do with it to direct as one unit.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that both Sykes and Warren were competent commanders of the corps; they followed their orders, handled their corps efficiently in the field, communicated with their subordinates well, and were perfectly adequate administrators. While both men lacked was the sort of initiative and/or flamboyance that distinguished some of their fellows, but the Fifth was always a steadfast corps under both.

It is also worth noting that according to a few of his officers, Warren was fairly popular with his men, and they generally resented Sheridan for his removal.

That seems fair.

And his removal by Sheridan was messed up. I read a defense of that the other day based on how Sheridan couldn't take the time to determine if Warren had actually done anything wrong at Five Forks, but simply appearing to have done so was enough.

No. This is not how commanders who care about whether or not their decisions are just(ified) act, l'il Phil. This is how commanders who want to emphasize that they're in charge and anyone can be removed because they say so act.

Found it: http://www.lawrencehelm.com/2012/08/bruce-catton-on-general-warren.html

I'm not sure if Warren's behavior at Five Forks was excellent or not. But there was most certainly time to address why Warren had done what he did there and whether or not that actually failed to accomplish what was asked of the corps rather than Sheridan thinking with his kidneys instead of his head.
 
Last edited:
His performance with a corps seems to fall short of anything special, though. Not bad, but not someone I'd be eager to retain.

Why Warren over Sykes, that I don't get. Warren doesn't seem to have had much to boast about with a corps either, and Sykes at least has a credible performance at Gettysburg.

Do you think this is missing anything?

Warren was the "Hero of Little Round Top." At first, both Meade and Grant had a high opinion of him. Grant even thought that if something happened to Meade, Warren would be his choice to command the Army of the Potomac. Things quickly went downhill, though, as Warren showed himself to be unable to follow orders without arguing about it first, and his performance was lackluster. Meade almost relieved him at least once prior to the Crater. Finally, when Sheridan relieved him at Five Forks, both Grant and Meade were happy to see him go.

Meade always regretted losing Sykes' services.

Sykes' performance at Gettysburg seems to be short of anything special because he was truly a modest man who didn't blow his own horn in his reports. He followed orders, did what was expected of him, and turned in consistently solid performances.
 
Warren was the "Hero of Little Round Top." At first, both Meade and Grant had a high opinion of him. Grant even thought that if something happened to Meade, Warren would be his choice to command the Army of the Potomac. Things quickly went downhill, though, as Warren showed himself to be unable to follow orders without arguing about it first, and his performance was lackluster. Meade almost relieved him at least once prior to the Crater. Finally, when Sheridan relieved him at Five Forks, both Grant and Meade were happy to see him go.

Meade always regretted losing Sykes' services.

Sykes' performance at Gettysburg seems to be short of anything special because he was truly a modest man who didn't blow his own horn in his reports. He followed orders, did what was expected of him, and turned in consistently solid performances.

I guess its a matter of semantics on if that's "special". But its certainly a steady, solid piece of work - maybe not "Wow look at Sykes, this is an example of MILITARY GREATNESS", but certainly the kind of professionalism that is so distinctly admirable in other, better known figures.

And he seems to have been fair on his subordinates as far as his reports went - not excessively generous or harsh. That's a meaningful something, I think. Not all generals are good at giving credit (whether stealing it for themselves or not) - Jackson comes to mind. And making sure good service is acknowledged is one of the things that separate thoughtful generals from the jerks.
 
I guess its a matter of semantics on if that's "special". But its certainly a steady, solid piece of work - maybe not "Wow look at Sykes, this is an example of MILITARY GREATNESS", but certainly the kind of professionalism that is so distinctly admirable in other, better known figures.

And he seems to have been fair on his subordinates as far as his reports went - not excessively generous or harsh. That's a meaningful something, I think. Not all generals are good at giving credit (whether stealing it for themselves or not) - Jackson comes to mind. And making sure good service is acknowledged is one of the things that separate thoughtful generals from the jerks.

Yes, I don't make claims to his being a military genius, but he's a forgotten commander in many ways. Remember also, he was just as new to corps command as Meade was to army command, having replaced Meade as commander of the V Corps on Meade's promotion to army command. Sykes had commanded the Regulars for most of the war and was most associated with them.

When Meade reorganized the Army of the Potomac and Sykes was displaced, Charles Wainwright wrote, "A number of general officers are relieved from duty with this army; Corps commanders Sykes, French, and Newton, and Brigade Commanders Kenly, Spinola, and Meredith. The first is the only one I should think any loss."
 

Learn About Us
About CivilWarTalk
Contact the Webmaster
Meet the Staff
Link to CivilWarTalk
Join Our Community
Register
Browse Forums
View Today's Discussions
Search the Forum
Get Help
FAQ
Student Guide
Forum Rules & Etiquette
Copyright / DMCA

     Contact Us CivilwarTalk on Facebook CivilWarTalk on YouTube CivilWarTalk on Twitter RSS Feed

Bringing the American Civil War and More to Life.
© 1999 - , CIVILWARTALK, LLC - Site Version 10.0

SlaveryTalk.com - SecessionTalk.com - CivilWarTalk.com - ReconstructionTalk.com
Back
Top