Most Underrated General

Diane, Lee beat Meade at Paine's Farm. "Blinky" French was footdragging and held up the Union charge.
He then moved back over mine run. The big reason why Meade did not attack, over night was a terrible ice storm that suggest 6 inches of ice. He could not move his men or cannon etc. General Warren and Meade checked out the line and Meade decided to move back. Also General Lee only had 2 corp.

Isn't Payne's Farm the other name for Mine Run? I do think Lincoln was too hard on Meade - as you say the weather was...unco-operative! I still can't lay it as a victory for Lee, though, but I do agree he made his objective.
 
It's been mentioned before that abebooks.com has many European vendors and and American vendors who will ship to Greece. Don't know why Amazon won't, but there are a lot of things I don't know.

Actually ole, that was a crass untruth. Amazon will ship to Greece. I posted rates the other night--costs about a dollar more to ship there. (All I did was Google the question, and it took me right to the Amazon website). Lesson: don't lie about something easily checked on the Internet. :)

And as Eric pointed out, Kindle works wherever you are, if you're that desperate. Hey, that's why I have one!
 
And this is comin from a Texan, so she knows something about a lack of hills... :mstickle:

Why do you think there are more Texans in New Mexico than here? :) I bet you've seen that bumper sticker, so don't answer. When I lived in Ruidoso I even hated Texans! There's something about crossing that border that makes them highly obnoxious! (Hopefully my brother in law and his wife are exceptions to the rule now that they live in
Santa Fe!)
 
Yes.



I really don't know what one would call it. I gave it to Lee as a win.

The Union drive at this juncture was pretty solid, making it hard to determine some of these actions. Sometimes I think it's a little hard to tell in these late close campaigns who won or lost as nothing was very decisive. There's no doubt about Gettysburg - there is about Antietam. Lee won Antietam but had to withdraw and that seemed to be the story of his great victories. He didn't have the strength to hold what he won.
 
I think in regards to Lee and indecisive battles my rule of thumb would be:

If Lee was forced to go back because of someone else, it was a loss for Lee. (Antietam for example)

If Lee forced someone else to go back, it was a win for Lee.

If both Lee and the other guy left the area and sought to meet later, it was neither.

Mine Run seems to be "Neither Lee or Meade felt that continuing to push the issue was a good idea, at least not here and not now."

And anything that can be said about Lee not having 1st Corps has to be set against the fact Meade's army is less than full as well. Wounded, weary giants.
 
The Union drive at this juncture was pretty solid, making it hard to determine some of these actions. Sometimes I think it's a little hard to tell in these late close campaigns who won or lost as nothing was very decisive. There's no doubt about Gettysburg - there is about Antietam. Lee won Antietam but had to withdraw and that seemed to be the story of his great victories. He didn't have the strength to hold what he won.

Walking the Mine Run area, one could understand why General Lee went into a defensive mode. The land there lends itself
to lose soldiers the way the little hills run in that area. Those earthworks were used at various times and brought to a point of being a citadel. Fine move by General Lee. Even if the weather was permissive, Meade would never get to him. Remember. Longstreet was not there.
Meade withdrew back across the Rappahannock.
 
Walking the Mine Run area, one could understand why General Lee went into a defensive mode. The land there lends itself
to lose soldiers the way the little hills run in that area. Those earthworks were used at various times and brought to a point of being a citadel. Fine move by General Lee. Even if the weather was permissive, Meade would never get to him. Remember. Longstreet was not there.
Meade withdrew back across the Rappahannock.

That's so - Longstreet was off on his Knoxville escapade. Now I'm a little foggy tonight - why did Lee think it was ok to let Longstreet go at that point? I'm thinking he figured Meade and decided he could handle him.
 
That's so - Longstreet was off on his Knoxville escapade. Now I'm a little foggy tonight - why did Lee think it was ok to let Longstreet go at that point? I'm thinking he figured Meade and decided he could handle him.
Davis wanted him to send troops to Bragg (wound up arriving in time for Chickamauga and stayed in the West until past March of the following year), and the president's will overrided Lee's preferences.

Not sure how much "under protest" that was, but Lee certainly didn't volunteer sending anyone in any of my reading.
 
Thanks, Elennsar! I'm having a brain fog episode and wouldn't catch my notes if I looked at them! :D (It'll pass.) Don't think Longstreet would have had a chance to make a difference, in this particular campaign. However, I regret that Davis made that insistence. Except for his actions at Chickamauga, the remainder of Longstreet's stint in Tennessee was the waste of a good officer to Lee.
 
Thanks, Elennsar! I'm having a brain fog episode and wouldn't catch my notes if I looked at them! :D (It'll pass.) Don't think Longstreet would have had a chance to make a difference, in this particular campaign. However, I regret that Davis made that insistence. Except for his actions at Chickamauga, the remainder of Longstreet's stint in Tennessee was the waste of a good officer to Lee.
About the only good thing for the Confederacy it accomplished, IMO, was get rid of a division commander (McLaws) who had turned out over the course of 1863 to not be all that was hoped of him.

But yeah, waste of good men and a good lieutenant in something that brought out the worst in him.
 
Thanks, Elennsar! I'm having a brain fog episode and wouldn't catch my notes if I looked at them! :D (It'll pass.) Don't think Longstreet would have had a chance to make a difference, in this particular campaign. However, I regret that Davis made that insistence. Except for his actions at Chickamauga, the remainder of Longstreet's stint in Tennessee was the waste of a good officer to Lee.
Not one good officer, diane. You forgot Hood and McLaws. They never returned in the Army of Northern Virginia and their commanders were good ones. Yet, what the Army of Northern Virginia cost something else to General Lee more dearly: men. Not only was he deprived of his First Corps as long as Longstreet remained in detached duty, but also the casualties of Longstreet's fruitless expedition near Knoxville (his Fort Sanders assault was perhaps the greater blunder committed by a Confederate general) but also his Chickamauga losses.
About the only good thing for the Confederacy it accomplished, IMO, was get rid of a division commander (McLaws) who had turned out over the course of 1863 to not be all that was hoped of him.
But yeah, waste of good men and a good lieutenant in something that brought out the worst in him.
Why do you criticize McLaws unfairly? I cannot think of a serious mistake. He participated in the Seven Days, Second Manassas, Sharpsburg and Fredericksburg with distinction. On the first day of Chancellorsville, he helped Jackson repulse Hooker's brief offensive and at the third day of that battle he helped General Lee oust Sedgwick from Fredericksburg.
At Gettysburg, he attacked alongside Hood and did his best. If Longstreet had done what his subordinates did, Gettysburg's outcome would be very different.
At Chickamauga, McLaws behaved bravely and contributed to the Confederate victory.
Finally, I don't see an error he committed during Longstreet's Fruitless Expedition to Knoxville. Longstreet wanted a scapegoat for his failure and found two: McLaws and Robertson. Later, Longstreet confessed that what he had done to them was pure injustice.
Civil War Scholar.
 
Why do you criticize McLaws unfairly? I cannot think of a serious mistake. He participated in the Seven Days, Second Manassas, Sharpsburg and Fredericksburg with distinction. On the first day of Chancellorsville, he helped Jackson repulse Hooker's brief offensive and at the third day of that battle he helped General Lee oust Sedgwick from Fredericksburg.

McLaws didn't participate "with distinction" at Antietam/Sharpsburg, his command skills were only marginally tested at Fredericksburg (so its hard to tell if he's worthy of any credit with so little done to give him a rating for), and as for Chancellorsville I'll let Freeman describe it:

"McLaws -- shown to hesitant and unaggressive." - page 515 of the one volume abridged version of Lee's Lieutenants.

And Freeman is not known for casually making such comments about Confederate officers.

Nor is Lee leaving someone's name off the list of those praised something he did without very good reason. If you want to say you know better about McLaws's performance there than General Lee, I'd happily listen to a well reasoned argument.

At Gettysburg, he attacked alongside Hood and did his best. If Longstreet had done what his subordinates did, Gettysburg's outcome would be very different.

If Longstreet had done what his subordinates did, he would have been incapacitated early in the fight (if talking Hood), ineffectual (if talking Law, whose control over Hood's division was minimal on day 2), largely irrelevant (Pickett - his division was not in a position where his leadership could change very much) or ordinary at best (McLaws).

How is this going to change anything substantially?

1st Corps fought magnificently, but this battle showed little tactical acumen for the generals in gray (along with several in blue, but if we're talking Longstreet's subordinates what Slocum did is kinda beside the point).

At Chickamauga, McLaws behaved bravely and contributed to the Confederate victory.
Finally, I don't see an error he committed during Longstreet's Fruitless Expedition to Knoxville. Longstreet wanted a scapegoat for his failure and found two: McLaws and Robertson. Later, Longstreet confessed that what he had done to them was pure injustice.
Civil War Scholar.

http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;q1=McLaws;rgn=full text;idno=waro0051;didno=waro0051;view=image;seq=509;page=root;size=100 Given when Kershaw reports McLaws resuming command of the division relative to the fighting, you might want to reconsider claiming McLaws contributed to the victory.

If that's not convincing enough, he's mentioned just four times in Peter Cozzen's book on Chickamauga (over five hundred pages long not counting endnotes and the order of battle) - none of which are during the battle.

So where the heck is the notion of him behaving bravely from when there's little sign of him even being present?

As for Knoxville, I leave that to those who know it better than I do to properly analyze his performance there, but there's nothing about it I can think of that stands out as praiseworthy.

And Longstreet confessed that when according to what source? If you say Foote I'm going to treat that the same as "So, we don't have an actual source for this." given the inability to tell where Foote got anything he claims was said or happened from.

Frankly, the man (McLaws) failed to live up to expectations. That doesn't mean he was a horrific failure, but the only major consequence to him not being present in 1864 was that Kershaw's brigade not having a permanent replacement of the appropriate rank when the 20th South Carolina Infantry joined it meant that the green colonel of said green regiment was its senior colonel and was not prepared for the situation of 1864.

But as far as division command goes, McLaws showed no sign that he would have guided the division better than Kershaw.
 
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Davis wanted him to send troops to Bragg (wound up arriving in time for Chickamauga and stayed in the West until past March of the following year), and the president's will overrided Lee's preferences.

Not sure how much "under protest" that was, but Lee certainly didn't volunteer sending anyone in any of my reading.

Longstreet had been hounding the hell out of Richmond to go West. But that is for another thread.
 
IMHO, I always felt that Hancock while recognized, didn't get the full recognition that he deserved, most likely because his wounding at Gettysburg put a crimp in his military career while he rehabilitated.
 
Hancock...good commander, but deteriorating. From the Wilderness to Boydton Plank Road, I hardly recognize the Hancock of Gettysburg.
Civil War Scholar.

Hancock was one of the best generals produced during the war (not just "good") but his wound was crippling and he really shouldn't have returned to the field after Gettysburg.

R
 

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