Misfiring with blanks

[thomas aagaard]

Once again, thanks for replying gents. There's a lot of good ideas here. Hopefully someone having the same problems will stumble on this thread.
There's one last possibility for the misfires even with live rounds and that is a small powder charge. The NSSA shooters swear by the ~45grs of 3f charge. I think its possible that with such a low charge, upon ramming, some of that powder goes inside the Minie cavity and the depression in the breech-plug, thereby ramming the Minie so far against the powder charge that the ball itself blocks the vent.

I cant find any info online, but is there a max 3f charge for the 1861 with a 500gr Minie?
And if there are any powder experts here, any objection to using 1.5f powder?

well, The historical one was 60/65 for American made Enfield and Springfield cartridge.
And the brits used 68 in theirs.

 

[poorjack]

Once again, thanks for replying gents. There's a lot of good ideas here. Hopefully someone having the same problems will stumble on this thread.
There's one last possibility for the misfires even with live rounds and that is a small powder charge. The NSSA shooters swear by the ~45grs of 3f charge. I think its possible that with such a low charge, upon ramming, some of that powder goes inside the Minie cavity and the depression in the breech-plug, thereby ramming the Minie so far against the powder charge that the ball itself blocks the vent.

I cant find any info online, but is there a max 3f charge for the 1861 with a 500gr Minie?
And if there are any powder experts here, any objection to using 1.5f powder?

One thing you must understand about real black powder, a smaller grain size, like going from 2f to 3f, yields a quicker pressure rise on ignition because more powder is burning. It's a function of surface area exposed to ignition. Now taking that into account, going to 3f from 2f, we N-SSA guys have found that it takes about 10% lower charge when going to 3f from 2f. With that in mind, that "low" charge is about the equivalent of a 50g charge of 2f. Also couple that with the fact that Swiss is about 10% "hotter" than the lower grades and that 45g charge of 3f Swiss is actually about the same energy as a 55ish charge of 2f mid grade powder. Not all black powder is made equal nor are all musket caps equal. If you're using CCI musket caps, good luck, you'll need it. They are designed for reenactors and very sketchy for live fire. If you're having issues with blanks and CCI, try switching to Scheutzen or RWS.

As with modern arms, best accuracy isn't often found at max charges. If the minie is blocking your vent, it's possible the vent isn't drilled correctly.

 

[thomas aagaard]

As with modern arms, best accuracy isn't often found at max charges.

But are you shooting just for fun? or to get a historical experience?

If its the first, sure use what ever small charge that you find works.

But If you are going for the historical, your clothing, gear, cartridges including the powder load should be done correctly.

 

[poorjack]

But are you shooting just for fun? or to get a historical experience?

If its the first, sure use what ever small charge that you find works.

But If you are going for the historical, your clothing, gear, cartridges including the powder load should be done correctly.

You leave out competition. I did more than a couple years burning blanks in reenactments now I prefer live rounds in competition. Historical? You can dress the part but unless and until you walk everywhere, eat the same stuff, get the same diseases, shoot the exact same load, best you'll ever do is approximate what happened in the War. Mainstream or authentic, I seriously doubt there are many that could keep up with even the most sickly soldier of the period.

I've been in the shooting sports for over 50 years and in almost every case, the maximum or even service charge is not the most accurate for any given arm, antique or modern. That's simple physics and manufacturing. If you don't care about being able to hit anything, then bless yer heart, go have fun.

 

[Corporal]

we N-SSA guys have found that it takes about 10% lower charge when going to 3f from 2f. With that in mind, that "low" charge is about the equivalent of a 50g charge of 2f. Also couple that with the fact that Swiss is about 10% "hotter" than the lower grades and that 45g charge of 3f Swiss is actually about the same energy as a 55ish charge of 2f mid grade powder.

I'll keep that in mind.
Is 55grs of 3f still safe with a 500gr bullet? I realize its on the high end but Im trying to figure out the parameters, there's little info online.

I tried 20 rounds of .575 sized Minies with a 63gr charge of 1.5f yesterday with very poor results. Some of the rounds actually hit accurately at 100yds but the fouling made it impossible to ram any further down after 10. The fouling was especially thick at the breech. I took a break to clean the bore out before trying the remaining 10 rounds.
This coupled with the fact that the Pedersoli 1861s have a .579 bore doesnt mean ease of loading.

3f is definitely the way to go.

 

[Booner]

I'll keep that in mind.
Is 55grs of 3f still safe with a 500gr bullet? I realize its on the high end but Im trying to figure out the parameters, there's little info online.

I tried 20 rounds of .575 sized Minies with a 63gr charge of 1.5f yesterday with very poor results. Some of the rounds actually hit accurately at 100yds but the fouling made it impossible to ram any further down after 10. The fouling was especially thick at the breech. I took a break to clean the bore out before trying the remaining 10 rounds.
This coupled with the fact that the Pedersoli 1861s have a .579 bore doesnt mean ease of loading.

3f is definitely the way to go.

Assuming your musket is in good working order, 55 grains of 3f should be no problem.

 

[poorjack]

I'll keep that in mind.
Is 55grs of 3f still safe with a 500gr bullet? I realize its on the high end but Im trying to figure out the parameters, there's little info online.

I tried 20 rounds of .575 sized Minies with a 63gr charge of 1.5f yesterday with very poor results. Some of the rounds actually hit accurately at 100yds but the fouling made it impossible to ram any further down after 10. The fouling was especially thick at the breech. I took a break to clean the bore out before trying the remaining 10 rounds.
This coupled with the fact that the Pedersoli 1861s have a .579 bore doesnt mean ease of loading.

3f is definitely the way to go.

55g is no problem BUT, when we're discussing solving your problem, we need to know all the details, powder (brand/grade), caps, lube. If your bore measures .579, then a .575 is waay undersized. Again, the other details need to be known to help solve this problem. With a .579 bore, you should be shooting .577/8 and yes, those few thousands coupled with 1.5F is a certain path to instant major fouling. Depending on your lube, it could be even worse. If the minies are not pure lead, you will have issues no matter what you do. The system was designed around pure lead and requires all components be in balance.

But back to powder, another way to look at this, all black powder in any given lot burns at the same rate regardless of "F". The variable is the "F" which is the amount of surface area exposed for ignition. 3F is much finer than 1.5F meaning more of it is burning at the moment of ignition yielding higher pressures on ignition. Those higher pressures serve to expand the skirt of the minie into the rifling, sealing the bore (assuming the minie is pure lead and no more than .002 under bore size). The slower rise with 1.5F allows for "blow by" and much higher fouling and you have the exact situation you've described.

 

[Corporal]

I gotta be honest but .575 for me is probably the best I'll ever do.
The load Im currently trying to work up is 54grs of Goex 3f, with RWS caps and a 460gr .575 Minie.
Bullet lube is probably where Im gonna get in trouble. When I initially cast and sized this current batch of Minies, I used Lee Liquid Allox that was on hand and that worked for a while, but that was applied 2yrs ago and that stuff has hardened.
I was looking into this stuff but I feel going with the original period recipe would be the best course now.

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lsstuff.com

 

[poorjack]

I gotta be honest but .575 for me is probably the best I'll ever do.
The load Im currently trying to work up is 54grs of Goex 3f, with RWS caps and a 460gr .575 Minie.
Bullet lube is probably where Im gonna get in trouble. When I initially cast and sized this current batch of Minies, I used Lee Liquid Allox that was on hand and that worked for a while, but that was applied 2yrs ago and that stuff has hardened.
I was looking into this stuff but I feel going with the original period recipe would be the best course now.

2500+ 1x4 Hollow sticks in bags cast bullet lubes [] - $3.05 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

2500+ 1x4” Hollow sticks in Bags. Working temp: 60F, melt temp 165F 2500+ is a great all purpose lube that has been used in a wide range of pistol and rifle cartridges with great results. I have used it in the 38 special, 45Colt, 454 and 470NE. This

lsstuff.com

For accuracy, the minie must be within .002 of bore size. Alox is a very bad idea with real black powder. Bullet lube is easy. Beeswax/tallow of some type. I shoot beeswax/lard/coconut oil/lanolin mix. This is a recent group I shot with my Parker Hale, 5 shots, first one clean bore flyer, rest into one hole.-

 

[Booner]

I gotta be honest but .575 for me is probably the best I'll ever do.
The load Im currently trying to work up is 54grs of Goex 3f, with RWS caps and a 460gr .575 Minie.
Bullet lube is probably where Im gonna get in trouble. When I initially cast and sized this current batch of Minies, I used Lee Liquid Allox that was on hand and that worked for a while, but that was applied 2yrs ago and that stuff has hardened.
I was looking into this stuff but I feel going with the original period recipe would be the best course now.

2500+ 1x4 Hollow sticks in bags cast bullet lubes [] - $3.05 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

2500+ 1x4” Hollow sticks in Bags. Working temp: 60F, melt temp 165F 2500+ is a great all purpose lube that has been used in a wide range of pistol and rifle cartridges with great results. I have used it in the 38 special, 45Colt, 454 and 470NE. This

lsstuff.com

I guess the first question is why is .575 the best sized bullet you'll get?
Do you have a mold and casting your own or are you buying yours or getting them from a friend
Do you have a sizer or are you shooting them as cast? Sizers are pretty inexpensive, especially when compared to the price of a mold.
Ideally, your mold would cast a bullet maybe 1 or 2 thousand oversized of your bore and you would use a sizer of the appropriate diameter to swag down you bullet to a thousand or two below your bore size.
However, in your current situation, where you say .575 is the diameter of your bullet, but the bore size is .579, then you could get a sizer thats .577, put the bullet in the sizer and "bump it up" to .577. It's not ideal, but it may be better than shooting a bullet that's 4 thousand undersized.

Lube's-
With black powder, you never want to use a man-made product for a lubricant. It needs to be of a natural occurring substance. That Alox your using is for hard cast bullets being shot at higher velocities than what you're doing. That black powder fouling in your barrel is not a bad thing as long as it remains soft where it actually provides a lubricant for your bullet to prevent leading and helps in the ease of loading. Where it causes a problem is when it gets dried out, it gets hard. So to avoid this, you either swab out the bore after every shot, or you use a lube that keeps the fouling soft. Most lube recipes for what you're doing uses bee's wax as its major ingredient, coupled with some type of fat to soften the bee's wax. Lard, tallow, Crisco, (the white creamy stuff), even olive oil can be used for the fat portion of the mixture. Years ago, when I shot in NSSA, my lube was a mix of bee's wax and Crisco. The ratio of the two products varied with the changing with the season. Less Chrisco in the summer as the lube would get runny. I shoot a 45-70 Sharps black powder cartridge rifle now and my lube of choice is SPG lube. It's major ingredients are bee's wax, lanolin and tallow; notice, no man-made products, (but sheep-made is fine). If you can't find bee's wax, you might use ordinary candle wax as the main ingredient along with a fat. There are all kinds of recipes for your bullet lube available with a little web search but stay away from anything that's for center fire. In fact, some of the things you know about center-fired bullets do not apply to muzzleloaders, black powder cartridge rifles, and .22 rimfires, but that's a topic for another time.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Coming to this party kind of late, all of the best suggestions for improving ignition with blanks have been suggested.
To recap:

1. Drill out the vent in the percussion cone to 1/16" The Pedersoli has a very small vent if you are using the factory cone
2. Keep the flash channel clean by removing the clean out screw and running pipe cleaners through there
3. Use FFFg vs FFg in the rounds