Misfiring with blanks

[Corporal]

Im coming back from a somewhat frustrated day at the range. Mine is a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield and it seems to misfire with blanks. I've ruled out the caps or cleanliness of the vent because the live rounds fired 10 out of 10 without any issue. However with blanks...just no luck. I was testing 2 types, both about 63grs of 2f and 1 1/2f grade powder. I get the feeling that the powder needs to be packed tighter up against the vent but with blanks, thats simply out of the question. I plan on trying 60grs of 3f (because that grade of powder seems to catch the spark better) and maybe 75grs of 2f again.
Ive also heard of something called a "reenactor nipple" for the 1861. Is this an actual thing you can buy or just the practice of enlarging the vent on the nipple itself?

Thoughts?
(Also, does anyone have a picture of a Springfield 1861 breech plug? It doesnt seem to be a flat breech like on the 18th century muskets I ask because I dont think my scraper tool is working well on it.)

 

[tmorr]

Ram your paper cartridge down on top of your powder after it's poured into the muzzle and it should go boom if the vent is clear. Obviously you can't do this at re-enactments but you can do it at most state and NPS living history events.

You can also drill out the cone and vent to the breech slightly to increase the amount of flame from the cap getting to the powder.

 

[captaindrew]

What brand caps are you using? In the reenacting world a lot of the guys have been having trouble with the CCI caps. For firing blanks I use 60 grains 3F powder, preferably Goex but lately have settled for Schuetzen and I use RWS (German) caps and never have trouble. Have you taken out the clean out screw and thoroughly cleaned out the vent and bolster? Springfields can be really finicky if that's not perfectly clear, I know from experience I have one. And yes you can purchase an aftermarket cone with a larger hole, I have them on all my guns and they do help for blanks but remember to put the factory cone back on for live fire. Regimental Quartermaster has them and they are pretty inexpensive.

 

[thomas aagaard]

This is what we usually do in my acw unit (where Iam in the ranks) and the same when Iam in command of a platoon of 1864 danes.

We always use 1-2 caps to make sure there is no issue with oile or dirt in the vent.
Then If at all possible we ram the first charge with a part of the paper cartridge. It can be a small piece like 1"x1"
(this can be done is a safe way, since there is no stress and we can all help make sure that no one forgets to withdraw the rammer)

The reason is that a number of us have had the same issue.
If you prime and "fire" it at a flower or similar it is clear that there is no issue it oile or dirt.
But the blank charge will not fire.

Then we ram one blank charge and it fires and afterwards you can load a blank as normal and it will also fire.

Not sure why this is. Maybe there are stil some oil in the vent/barrel that gets "removed" with the first charge?
Maybe the heat help a bit?

 

[captaindrew]

I have one more question for you, and it may be a dumb one so I pre apologize, you aren't trying to use Pyrodex are you? I have to ask because I've seen it before with people new to black powder shooting but have experience with modern muzzle loaders. Pyrodex will not ignite if it's not under pressure, it won't work firing blanks. If it does ignite at all it will be a long smokey wet fart. Just last season I had a father and son in the ranks fairly new to reenacting. The first couple events we gave them rounds to use, they then showed up very proud that they rolled their own rounds and were ready to go. Well they had all kids of trouble getting their guns to fire and they were using company loaners I knew were clean. I asked them to show me their rounds and everything looked right. I then asked what brand powder and caps they were using and they handed me a bottle of Pyrodex. It absolutely won't work in that application.

 

[hltodd]

I have no experience using blanks in an 1861. I do use Pyrodex blanks in Ruger old armies and in replica colts and remingtons with no misfires. I willI have to give it a try in some of my long guns. Use pyrodex due to difficulty obtaining the real stuff.

 

[captaindrew]

I have no experience using blanks in an 1861. I do use Pyrodex blanks in Ruger old armies and in replica colts and remingtons with no misfires. I willI have to give it a try in some of my long guns. Use pyrodex due to difficulty obtaining the real stuff.

It will work in a closed cartridge/casing but not pouring loose down the barrel of a musket.

 

[Corporal]

I have one more question for you, and it may be a dumb one so I pre apologize, you aren't trying to use Pyrodex are you?

Nope. I learned that a while ago with a Brown Bess, the delay was insane and ignition about 50%. The blanks were unit issued.

To answer your questions, the vent and nipple were cleaned after every misfire yesterday without success. I use RWS caps.
I'll go with that reenactor nipple first chance I get and test my blanks with it. Im really hoping I dont have to re-roll all 200.
Im liking the idea of 3f blanks more and more and worst case scenario I'll refill the blanks with that powder.

Besides the reenactor cone, did you enlarge the vent that goes into the breech at all?

 

[captaindrew]

Nope. I learned that a while ago with a Brown Bess, the delay was insane and ignition about 50%. The blanks were unit issued.

To answer your questions, the vent and nipple were cleaned after every misfire yesterday without success. I use RWS caps.
I'll go with that reenactor nipple first chance I get and test my blanks with it. Im really hoping I dont have to re-roll all 200.
Im liking the idea of 3f blanks more and more and worst case scenario I'll refill the blanks with that powder.

Besides the reenactor cone, did you enlarge the vent that goes into the breech at all?

Yeah try 3f, I think it's more consistent firing blanks. I wouldn't drill out the vent. If you do any live firing it can cause a lot of back pressure in the wrong direction. That's why you also want to put the factory cone back on for live fire. If you're still having trouble try a different batch of caps. I like RWS the best but I've also run into a bad batch of those before.

 

[Booner]

(Also, does anyone have a picture of a Springfield 1861 breech plug? It doesnt seem to be a flat breech like on the 18th century muskets I ask because I dont think my scraper tool is working well on it.)

Others have answered your problems with shooting blanks, so I'll address your breech plug.

It sounds like you're referring to a "Patented Breech Plug." This is a system where the breech plug is longer than normal and has a sub-caliber hole drilled into it. In theory, it's supposed to provide a hotter and more reliable ignition of the powder, but in my experience, it falls far short, and in general is a pita to deal with, (I'm sure Pedersoli's lawyers really like them, as it does make for a very robust breach). I have a Pederoli flintlock in .36 caliber with a patented breech and it was not a reliable shooter until I made a special bore scraper for it to clean out that sub caliber (of approximately .26 caliber).

I did a brief search to see if your Springfield had this type of breach but couldn't come up with anything. It sounds like you already have a bore scraper, so if you ran a line of grease along the edge of the scraper portion and slowly run it down the bore, the grease should be scraped off along the ends of the edge, where it come up against the end of the breech face, but still remain on the edge of the middle of the scraper blade where the subcaliber recess is. If you find that you do have a patented breach, you have to determine the size of the sub-caliber hole and how deep it is. Track of the Wolf used to sell a bore scraper with a real long blade. I got one of those bore scrapers and with a little file work got it to the correct profile where I was able to clean the whole breach area really well.

Two pictures of a patented breach plug system showing its sub-caliber bore at the breech face.

 

[Corporal]

YES!!! Thanks for bringing that up! I thought I was seeing things.

The 58cal bore scraper cleans up the rim of that breech but it doesnt get anything out of the depression in the middle. Luckily Ive determined that the vent is drilled just at the top of the rim and not inside the hole.
I can only see this being an issue with smaller charges being used with live rounds since the ball could potentially block the vent. I run pretty light loads of 3f currently and havent had issues.
I'll most likely get another scraper and file down the edges to conform to that shape and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Booner]

YES!!! Thanks for bringing that up! I thought I was seeing things.

The 58cal bore scraper cleans up the rim of that breech but it doesnt get anything out of the depression in the middle. Luckily Ive determined that the vent is drilled just at the top of the rim and not inside the hole.
I can only see this being an issue with smaller charges being used with live rounds since the ball could potentially block the vent. I run pretty light loads of 3f currently and havent had issues.
I'll most likely get another scraper and file down the edges to conform to that shape and see if it makes a difference.

I can't imagine that the vent hole would be placed at the top of the inner chamber. That would be a P. poor design.

Now that you have an idea of what your breach may look like, get yourself a 1/4-inch-long dowel and insert it into the bore and mark the dowel where it comes to at the end of your muzzle. Then lay that dowel alongside the barrel and now you can tell where the breach face is and how far the flash hole is in front of the breach face. The flash hole should be fairly close to the front of the breach face, patented breach plug system or not.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I have one more question for you, and it may be a dumb one so I pre apologize, you aren't trying to use Pyrodex are you? I have to ask because I've seen it before with people new to black powder shooting but have experience with modern muzzle loaders. Pyrodex will not ignite if it's not under pressure, it won't work firing blanks. If it does ignite at all it will be a long smokey wet fart. Just last season I had a father and son in the ranks fairly new to reenacting. The first couple events we gave them rounds to use, they then showed up very proud that they rolled their own rounds and were ready to go. Well they had all kids of trouble getting their guns to fire and they were using company loaners I knew were clean. I asked them to show me their rounds and everything looked right. I then asked what brand powder and caps they were using and they handed me a bottle of Pyrodex. It absolutely won't work in that application.

That long drawn out "smoke pump" discharges of loose Pyrodex work really good for still photography shots. It looks like a normal ignition on film. Also, quiet. So no extra unwanted noise if near neighbors and civilization that might be disturbed or freaked out.
My first can of Pyrodex I got when I got my first musket. We found that if we used a large amount we could get a report but it wasted so much powder it wasn't worth doing. Worked great with lead wadding. I used it for live fire but being 14 years old I experimented with other possible uses for Pyrodex. Little black star circles all over the back yard.
$20.00 + per pound for that stuff around here these days. Too expensive for Freelance Pyrotechniques Now. Still use it with my Revolvers and save the real thing for musket rounds. It takes less powder than BP per shot and the Quick Grits pressed down real good on top of it I get a loud report. Almost as loud as a live round going off. Cleans up easier and doesn't corrode as bad also. Pyrodex has some good use. We have no source for BP here so I have to be strategic with powder consumption.
My'63 Sharps Carbine has some real issues with all the imitation BP products. Even live firing.
Cheers!

I have one more question for you, and it may be a dumb one so I pre apologize, you aren't trying to use Pyrodex are you? I have to ask because I've seen it before with people new to black powder shooting but have experience with modern muzzle loaders. Pyrodex will not ignite if it's not under pressure, it won't work firing blanks. If it does ignite at all it will be a long smokey wet fart. Just last season I had a father and son in the ranks fairly new to reenacting. The first couple events we gave them rounds to use, they then showed up very proud that they rolled their own rounds and were ready to go. Well they had all kids of trouble getting their guns to fire and they were using company loaners I knew were clean. I asked them to show me their rounds and everything looked right. I then asked what brand powder and caps they were using and they handed me a bottle of Pyrodex. It absolutely won't work in that application.

 

[DixieRifles]

Maybe there are stil some oil in the vent/barrel that gets "removed" with the first charge?

Not sure if I follow you on the sequence you described. However you can have excess oil in the barrel so that when you load the powder, it collects all the oil and pushes it down to the breech.
I have used alcohol on a patch to swab the bore---there may be a better solution. Then I carry a can of Air to blow through the nipple and it should blow-dry the bottom of the bore.
I have a rifle that always seems to misfire on the first live shot--either blank or with a round. So I usually clean as much as I can and fire one blank before I start shooting. However, once I get a blank round to fire, there is no problem ---- unless I swab the bore with a damp patch to clean out the residue. I learned to just lick the patch and swab it with that.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Not sure if I follow you on the sequence you described. However you can have excess oil in the barrel so that when you load the powder, it collects all the oil and pushes it down to the breech.
I have used alcohol on a patch to swab the bore---there may be a better solution. Then I carry a can of Air to blow through the nipple and it should blow-dry the bottom of the bore.
I have a rifle that always seems to misfire on the first live shot--either blank or with a round. So I usually clean as much as I can and fire one blank before I start shooting. However, once I get a blank round to fire, there is no problem ---- unless I swab the bore with a damp patch to clean out the residue. I learned to just lick the patch and swab it with that.

I have put a flask nozzle of pistol powder over the nipple before to pour a dry bit of powder to shoot f

 

[DixieRifles]

I have put a flask nozzle of pistol powder over the nipple before to pour a dry bit of powder to shoot f

Yes, I resort to that.
I have also added a step in the initial clean out process: Remove the nipple, clean the vent hole and put a pinch of powder into the vent hole. Replace the nipple and fire it.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I have put a flask nozzle of pistol powder over the nipple before to pour a dry bit of powder to shoot f

Flame deep into the powder charge from the nipple. Usually works and that first round clears the moisture out of the breach if not the whole barrel.
I once had my cheap Indian made Enfield carbine give me trouble. When I pulled the nipple the whole going into the breach was so small. Then I started pushing a nipple pick through the whole and Lo and Behold.....the hole started widening. The actual nipple vent was twice a large. So much fine salty BP residue had collected while running water through the barrel when cleaning that clogged most of that hole. It looked just like the steel since it molded to base of the nipple. Amazing when the silt is removed that carbine never fails. So I learned my lesson on half *** field cleaning. I always remove the nipple now when flushing the barrel. I was being lazy and doing so while rushing to get that piece cleaned out. I love that little POS carbine though. 50 grains of 2F powder echoes out of that short .69 cal barrel very loudly with just one good tamp of the butt stock on the ground. CCI caps even work with it.
Im rambling. Sorry. Enlarging that fire hole is an option if misfires are happening.
Cheers!

 

[DixieRifles]

I once had my cheap Indian made Enfield carbine give me trouble. When I pulled the nipple the whole going into the breach was so small. Then I started pushing a nipple pick through the whole and Lo and Behold.....the hole started widening. The actual nipple vent was twice a large. So much fine salty BP residue had collected while running water through the barrel when cleaning that clogged most of that hole. It looked just like the steel since it molded to base of the nipple.

I assume that @Trooper "D" was cleaning his nipple after every shooting event. I always use Pipe Cleaners to scrub and scrap the cone of the nipple and the interior vent hole. I also try to hold it up to get light reflecting off the side of the cone.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I assume that @Trooper "D" was cleaning his nipple after every shooting event. I always use Pipe Cleaners to scrub and scrap the cone of the nipple and the interior vent hole. I also try to hold it up to get light reflecting off the side of the cone.

Pipe cleaners are great! I also use a small drill bit that barely fits and it scrapes the powder residue quite nicely.

 

[Corporal]

Once again, thanks for replying gents. There's a lot of good ideas here. Hopefully someone having the same problems will stumble on this thread.
There's one last possibility for the misfires even with live rounds and that is a small powder charge. The NSSA shooters swear by the ~45grs of 3f charge. I think its possible that with such a low charge, upon ramming, some of that powder goes inside the Minie cavity and the depression in the breech-plug, thereby ramming the Minie so far against the powder charge that the ball itself blocks the vent.

I cant find any info online, but is there a max 3f charge for the 1861 with a 500gr Minie?
And if there are any powder experts here, any objection to using 1.5f powder?