Mine Run--Meade's Actions--

[5fish]

Lets talk about one of those battles that never was. I am talking about Mine Run, 1863. Gen Meade wanted to move and flank the Lee's army but in AoP fashion it was to slow. Lee had time to move and entrench along high ground with open land slopping down towards the union position.

Lee was setting up for another Fredericksburg but through the night it seems the union was having second thoughts on attacking the confederate position. Gen Warren called Gen Meade over and after looking over the confederate lines he decided to retire back across the river.

History says union had learned their lessons from Fredericksburg but I am thinking cold feet set in not a lessons learned. THINK within six months, Gen Grant will be crashing this same AoP into entrenched confederate lines so what's this about lessons learned?

Was it lessons learned or cold feet by union leadership?

Gen. Meade plan was to attack both flanks of the confederate lines so Lee's men would be pinned down along the whole line. If Gen. Meade had breached the line Lee would not have been able to pull form other points along his line to seal the breach or would it have been an another Fredericksburg for the AoP.

Was it an opportunity lost by Gen. Meade or self destruction averted?

There's more to this battle but for now did the AoP get cold feet for self preservation or use proper discretion?

What do my fellow members of this board think of Gen. Meade's actions at Mine Run?


My feet feel a chill....

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear 5Fish;

In the Battle of Fredericksburg, to which he was at the brigade command level; under Burnside--Meade was successful in breaching Jackson's line but, due to the lack of support as to hold it once it was seized--well, Meade had to retreat. Being the 'only' one who actually went into the weakest point, took a Confederate position but, unable to hold--I am sure that it wasn't 'cold feet' but, being cautious. The casualities at Fredericksburg and Marye's Height was awful and there was no desire for a 'repeat.' If Lee was on the heights again--it would be a repeat. Unlike Gettysburg, where the Union held the heights--Meade did the right thing by withdrawing his troops to fight another time and place; with a better field to fight on.

Another thing that strikes me with Meade. Meade was an engineer and did well at West Point in this training. Like Lee--he may have seen engineering flaws to which would cause a collapse in his lines and loose the battle. With Lee and Meade having a familiar acquaintance situation with one another--I think Meade used his engineering 'sense' to which seeing Lee's pattern of battle engineering; may have seen flaws to which others did not see; being more trained in Infantry, Artillery and so forth.

If you ever get a chance to see General Meade's map of the Battle of Gettysburg; and the detail--well--It is a jaw dropper and in panaramic; it is too large for me to copy onto a flatbed scanner but; oh my----it is a work of art. But, what jumps out is the engineering.

Even if Meade attacked both flanks of Lee's army--I wouldn't be so sure Lee couldn't move his troops rapidly to fill the void. Lee's army was not bulked up with numbers--just sage veteran troops. Without massive numbers--Lee's army was quick to respond and shift into new positions.

After the Civil War; Meade made an official call on General Lee that was reportedly most friendly and with many fond memories of years past.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

 

[5fish]

Wolf,

When news reached Washington,D.C., there were people who who wanted Gen. Meade's head. In Washington's language he was censured for canceling the attack at Mine Run.

Was Mine Run mishandle by Meade? The arm chair generals in Washington thought he did....

Here's a thought would Gen. Grant have attacked at Mine Run? My guess is he would have attack for he never avoided a fight.

 

[gary]

I agree with Warren's cancellation of the attack. As an engineer, Warren surveyed the Confederate defenses and knew that attacking would result in the useless effusion of blood. Many Union soldiers knew it too and prepared themselves by writing their names on slips of paper and pinning it to their clothing. The Confederates also believed they would achieve another great victory as they were very well entrenched. If nothing else, remember what happened at Cold Harbor when Grant lost 3,500 men in an hour's time. Warren did right and while Meade was angry, the more he reflected upon Warren's decision, the more he came to agree with it.

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear 5Fish;

I am not so sure Grant would have put himself into a battle where he couldn't gain something in return.

I think if General G. Warren would lay out the engineering aspects to which might not be popular; as was the case about Meade's experience with second-guessed by Washington; both Meade and Grant weren't in the fight for political pats on the back. They were professional soldiers and would do battle to achieve a goal--not grand standing like Sickles or Pope.

With Warren an engineer, a former instructor in engineering and surveying at West Point; Meade also an engineer --I would think Grant would want to listen to either of them; as they were facing General Robert E. Lee-also an engineer. It was that kind of battle of 'chess' that engineers would understand. Grant knew how to use his advisors.

Just to be refreshed, Meade was already subjected to negatives from Washington. Halleck, Lincoln and others were fully aware that Meade was being subjected to it since Sickles came back ahead of the troops because he was wounded and with a non-de-plume made attacks against Meade's character. Lincoln, Sec. of War, Halleck and others knew differently of what took place there and knew Sickles was trying to throw off attention to his disobeying Meade's orders--right or wrong- Sickles disobeyed orders with his corps and was pushed back where Meade had wanted him to be in the first place.

So, when Mine Run happens--its just a bunch of sour grapes, directed towards Meade. And, he was under Grant. So, that is that. If Grant didn't have issues--tough cookies as far as those generals in chairs in Washington.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

 

[5fish]

Lee's Late...

It is time to add another feature of the Mine run encounter between Lee and Meade...

History tells us Lee was trying to set up a Fredericksburg rerun at Mine Run. He learn the union left flank was open for a Chancellorsville type move.

While the union was getting cold feet, Lee delay the flanking move hoping the union would attack his entrenched lines. He waited to long to strike and the union was on the other side of the river..

Which leads to Lee's commit "I am too old to command this army. We should never have permitted those people to get away"

Did the union AoP escape another Fredericksburg or Chancellorsville?

Did Lee fail in leadership again at Mine Run as he did at Gettysburg?

Did Meade's caution again save him from Lee's wrath?

Even thou Mine Run never was, it had all the hall marks of a historical confrontation between the AoNV and AoP...

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear 5Fish;

You asked:
Did the union AoP escape another Fredericksburg or Chancellorsville?
In my opinion - yes.

Did Lee fail in leadership again at Mine Run as he did at Gettysburg?
In my opinion - it really depends on what you call failure. Many generals have been late and lost their opportunities but; I see failure when the battle starts and to its end, that the loss is a failure. The only failure, was Lee's opportunity to strike. His delay, his judgment. But, again--many generals on both sides had opportunities slip from their grasp. If this fits the criteria for you to call a failure; then yes- Lee's leadership failed.

Did Meade's caution again save him from Lee's wrath?
In my opinion, Meade's caution was an army saved from needless casualties. Seeing how things were setting up and repeating the past--to not learn from that; would have been lessons not learned. As far as Lee's wrath--I think early in the war there might have been emotional 'wrath.' However, this was not a soldier's mentality--this was about out winning, out witting and out doing the other, as in military chess but, when Grant stepped in--it became military checkers. I would agree to the wording of escaping Lee's brilliant forces, tactics and leadership.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

 

[Vareb]

For those interested, there is a 4 part series on Mine Run on the History Forum with more parts coming.

http://boards.historychannel.com/forum.jspa?forumID=100

 

[5fish]

Wow

For those interested, there is a 4 part series on Mine Run on the History Forum with more parts coming.

http://boards.historychannel.com/forum.jspa?forumID=100

The guy had four post about the event at Mine Run....

 

[5fish]

Here is one of those overlooked mistakes by old Bobby Lee....