M1873 1877 Springfield Trapdoor

RSMorris

First Sergeant
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Arrived yesterday...
I know the ramrod is a second type from a M1878 but it looks like it has been on this one a long time so will keep it.

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Appears the oval cartouche was stamped on top of a previous cartouche. The oval would be Erskine S. Allen with the date 1877 below it. Haven't read anything yet about what the cartouche below it would have been.
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Breech loaders aren't really my thing, but the Springfield trapdoor is one I wouldn't mind owning. Yours looks really nice too. I enjoyed the photos very much.

John
 
Breech loaders aren't really my thing, but the Springfield trapdoor is one I wouldn't mind owning. Yours looks really nice too. I enjoyed the photos very much.

John
Get em while they are fairly cheap. One of the good things about these is there are several books and a website that tells you EVERYTHING you would ever want to know about trapdoors. Down to even how to tell if it is a real or replacement stock just by the cutout for the barrel bands springs.
 
Thanks for posting the photos. Interesting cartridge! Look forward to hearing about it.
it's a 45-70 for the trapdoor. 45 caliber backed by 70 grams of powder. The numbers/letters on the base R= rifle. F= Frankford
5= May. 80=1880 ... All I know about it.

Internally primed. Scroll down to the sectionalized cartridge, the photo explains much.
 
Internally primed. Scroll down to the sectionalized cartridge, the photo explains much.
Thaks for the info. Now I know what it looks like inside.
 
I have run into something wierd.... These barrels were supposed to have 3 rifle grooves..... mine has 6. From some research I have found that 6 grooves come from a long range barrel made in 1881. Please look at the pic and tell me what you think or am I just looking at this wrong? The receiver serial number is in the year 1877 and it has 1877 in the stock cartouche. So if it has 6 grooves that means, I think the original barrel was replaced at some point. Not a big deal I don't think. Still has all the right markings.

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I wouldnt worry about the barrel. Thats a real nice Trap Door for sure and everything looks correct too. You have a nice gem there. THanks for posting pictures
 
I wouldnt worry about the barrel. Thats a real nice Trap Door for sure and everything looks correct too. You have a nice gem there. THanks for posting pictures
The rifle is awesome. Was just curious why the barrel has 6 grooves when it is supposed to have three.
 
Does anyone know why there are three positions on the hammer? Every where I look says there are two but mine has three. The first doesn't allow you to raise the breech block but does put the trigger in safety. The 2nd position, allows you to open the breech block, still in safety, the third is for firing. Trying to understand the purpose of the first position and why this one has three positions when most have two.
 
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1st hammer locking back is the safety notch, loaded or not it wont fire, and trap door will not open, 2nd pull back hammer, half cock hammer frees up the lever to open the trap door to load or eject a spent round, last pull back hammer lock is to fire. I dont know why its set up that way, my Carbine does the same. Maybe soldiers always kept a round loaded and to eiliminate guessing they pull the hammer back to the first lock so they know the rifle is loaded ready on safety
 
1st hammer locking back is the safety notch, loaded or not it wont fire, and trap door will not open, 2nd pull back hammer, half cock hammer frees up the lever to open the trap door to load or eject a spent round, last pull back hammer lock is to fire. I dont know why its set up that way, my Carbine does the same. Maybe soldiers always kept a round loaded and to eiliminate guessing they pull the hammer back to the first lock so they know the rifle is loaded ready on safety
Thank you, on another forum they said the same thing. I would say of my 10 antique firearms this one is my favorite.
 
Just a few comments to add concerning the cocking positions of the hammer which is controlled by the tumbler on the inside of the lock and also touch on your concern about the bore of the barrel. This info is from the Poyer/Riesch book which I think you already have.

The trapdoors went through 3 types of tumblers--Type 2 added the extra quarter cock notch

Type 1 only had a half cock and a full cock---used to circa serial number #28,000 for carbines and #78,500 for rifles.
Type 2 added a quarter cock notch which kept the breech latch from accidentally opening. Used after the above-listed approximate serial numbers
Type 3 had slightly deeper notches for half and quarter cock---added after serial number #275,000

According to the Poyer/Riesch book the third variation hammer (beveled lip on the hammer face) was approved in 1880 but has been seen on serial numbers as low as 86,000 which would have been mid-1878

Next would be your concern about the bore. The lands and grooves in the Trapdoor are equilateral. In other words, the lands are just as wide as the grooves. I think that the six lines you see in your barrel are not the grooves but instead are the shared sides of only three grooves and only three lands. In other words, you are only looking at a standard number of three shallow lands and grooves which create the six lines you see. I had this same issue the first time I looked down the bore of my trapdoor. I finally slugged the barrel with a .452 bullet and could then see clearly that the grooves were just as wide as the lands and only three of each. On many rifled barrels, the grooves are much narrower and thus look more like lines all by themselves. I hope that's not too confusing. The bottom line is that I think your barrel is correct.

Lastly, I noticed that your rear sight is not complete. It's missing the ladder's elevation slide which engages the graduated steps on the side rails of the sight body to raise the ladder and sight for longer ranges. Of course, you don't need it if you are not going to shoot the gun at longer ranges but then you may want to get a replacement just to make your rifle complete. I haven't seen any slides for sale but Al Frasca has both the ladder and slide assemblies for sale on his site. It appears that he may be closing out his trapdoors and parts since it appears that he is not attempting to restock anything he sells at this point so you would have to call or email him to make sure what he has.

The Trapdoor Collector

However, another online seller of parts has the same ladder/slide assemblies in good condition for only $20 plus shipping. He also has some fair/lower-grade assemblies for only $10 plus shipping. You want to make sure you get an 1873 ladder and slide since they
updated the rear sight in 1879. The new sights mounted a new rear buckhorn-style sight directly on the slide and added the ability to adjust for windage.

Granpa's parts--1873 sight ladder and slide

I bought my model 1873 Trapdoor made in 1879 from Mr. Frasca about 2 years ago along with a nice mint condition bayonet. I later bought a complete rear sight from him to mount on a NIB reproduction Officer's model trapdoor made by H & R back in the 1970s. I could never afford the $20k starting entry fee for an original Officer's model. Mr. Frasca only has one rifle for sale presently and seems to have not added any inventory in at least a year. As already mentioned, it appears that he's simply getting out of the buying and selling aspect on his website--maybe selling off due to age. I'm almost at that point myself.

I'll post some pictures of mine if you don't mind me adding them to your thread.

Cheers
 
Thank you very much for your post with explanations. Yes, the sight is missing the slide. I am looking for one and will check your suggestions. The bore thing is very confusing( not your explanation) cause when you scope it it looks like 6 grooves and not three.
I belive the hammer on mine is a type 1 with no notch but with a serial number in the 80,000 i believe it is suppossed to have the notch according to the book. Not a biggie, the one on it matches all the patina so has been on there a long time. And yes, please post your pics, would love to see them.
 
I'm looking forward to seeing pics of other Trapdoors. I thought I had pics of mine but I just have one of the ad where I purchased it (for now)

Here's my Model 1873 Trapdoor:

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Wow, that's an early serial number. I see it has the early type 1 hammer. I am looking at the sites you told me about for the slide.
 

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