M1841? 12-pdr Mountain Howitzer

[LHR Lead]

I noticed a lot of you liked the M1841 12-pdr Mountain howitzer, and have a question:

why is it called the M1841?

There were 12 produced in 1836 and one 1837. The majority were produced in 1845 and later.

I'll give you a hint: Ordnance Manual, 1861. Was it a missprint or error? Or was 1841 the cutoff date?

My website lists them as M1836.

 

[UCVRelics]

M1841 12-pdr Mountain howitzer

The US Army model 1841 was a field gun. There was a mountain howitzer that was adapted by the US Army in 1837, 2 different pieces. I have built many of the howitzer, the carriage and tube are what makes it a mountain howitzer. The only gun I own now is my 1841 Field Gun.

 

[LHR Lead]

here is what I was talking about:

 

[James Brenner]

Yours is a good question. In 1835, an Ordnance Board recommended that a mountain howitzer be included in the new system of artillery then being developed for the army. Secretary Cass approved the Board's recommendation in 1836 and Cyrus Alger of Boston cast 12 of them for the federal government that year. The 13th barrel, cast in 1837, was for the state of New York. Until publication of the 1861 Ordnance Manual, the mountain howitzer was referred to only as "mountain howitzer". So, to my way of thinking, M1841 is a misnomer. If anything, the howitzer should be referred to as M1835/6 - or even Pattern 1835/6 - as the army accepted them into service during that time. BTW, I wish I could say that this is the result of my research only, but several others (Paul Rosewitz, Tom Bailey, Matt Switlik, and Duffy Neubauer, among others) have also explored this topic.

 

[LHR Lead]

I went for the pattern 1836 because the date is the earliest stamped into the gun. It seems model numbers did not come into vogue until around 1861 so pattern date on the earliest example makes sense to me.

 

[LHR Lead]

The Ordnance manual of 1861 has more questions than answers.

The 32-pdr Seacoast gun, for instance. Olmstead et al in "The Big Guns" lists the 32-pdr patterns as 1829 and 1845. There is no mention of M1841.

 

[James Brenner]

The Ordnance manual of 1861 has more questions than answers.

The 32-pdr Seacoast gun, for instance. Olmstead et al in "The Big Guns" lists the 32-pdr patterns as 1829 and 1845. There is no mention of M1841.

True, but don't forget that the M1841s were bronze while the larger sea coast guns and mortars were iron.

If you have the time (and the patience), much of the correspondence between the Secretaries of War, Congress, and the different Ordnance Boards are in the Congressional Series sets available on Hathi Trust. But, be warned, trawling through them is not for the faint of heart. The only index available is in each volume. The series is et up by volume number, not by date. Hathi page numbers do not match the documents' page numbers. Volume numbers 210 through 404 cover the 1830s thru early 1840s.

 

[Rhea Cole]

In 1841 the U.S. adopted the first home grown artillery for the army. The 1841 model six pound cannon & 12 pound howitzer became the standard replacing a hodgepodge of relics of bygone eras. The War with Mexico was the proving ground for the new light artillery models. The mobility they provided for the U.S. force was unprecedented.

At that time the 12 pound mountain howitzer was included in the new scheme. So, it became the 1841 to mark its inclusion into the modern inventory.

 

[Doc_Ralph]

The US Army model 1841 was a field gun. There was a mountain howitzer that was adapted by the US Army in 1837, 2 different pieces. I have built many of the howitzer, the carriage and tube are what makes it a mountain howitzer. The only gun I own now is my 1841 Field Gun.View attachment 520562View attachment 520563

Very nice Sir. Good flash and I am sure an equally good bark… Does he or she have a name? Nice tube!

 

[Doc_Ralph]

I learned the ropes on a mountain howitzer at Endview (2011) and through 1st Manassas 150 (galvanized for both) and New Market 150 (CSA all the way). I can't sing the praises enough as we hauled ours up little hillocks at Spotsy CH…nice bit of elevation towards the Muleshoe. Easy to get on the trailer … easy to crew and shoot and move. Double powder and KA POW! You can make some noise!

 

[Doc_Ralph]

Nice for live fire and night fires…easy to clean … never had a misfire on ours while I was on crew…easy on the truck's transmission, etc.

 

[LHR Lead]

In 1841 the U.S. adopted the first home grown artillery for the army. The 1841 model six pound cannon & 12 pound howitzer became the standard replacing a hodgepodge of relics of bygone eras. The War with Mexico was the proving ground for the new light artillery models. The mobility they provided for the U.S. force was unprecedented.

At that time the 12 pound mountain howitzer was included in the new scheme. So, it became the 1841 to mark its inclusion into the modern inventory.

I need to do some more research. I haven't found it portrayed like that. I haven't found reference to model numbers prior to 1861.
Back to internet searching.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I have taken the time to collect citations regarding the creation of the 1841 that you have been seeking.

Link to National Park article establishing the 1841 model mountain howitzer designation:

The 1841 Mountain Howitzer (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

Link to NPS article on 1841 mountain howitzer ammunition:

https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/ammunition-for-the-1841-mountain-4howitzer.htm

Links to articles about various aspects of the 1841 mountain howitzer.

Portable Civil War Artillery: The Mountain Howitzer – Iron Brigader

A Closer Look: Civil War Bronze 12-pounder Mountain Howitzer With Extremely Rare Original Carriage And Limber

Today we take a closer look at a Civil War bronze 12-pounder mountain howitzer, with its accompanying extremely rare original carriage and limber.

www.historicalpublicationsllc.com

https://archive.library.unr.edu/public/repositories/3/archival_objects/88504

 

[LHR Lead]

Rhea Cole said:

"In 1841 the U.S. adopted the first home grown artillery for the army."
yes, and no. The ordnance board was established in 1841 and printed out a manual to standardize procedures for Ordnance officers. It took a decade to standardize equipment and solidify procedures. The Ordnance Manual of 1841 (1st edition) was a "how to" book and covered everything from gunpowder chemicals to which wood to use in carriages, mostly copied from the French. It showed the Army using 6-pdr and 12-pdr guns along with 12-pdr and 24-pdr howitzers for field service.

"The 1841 model six pound cannon & 12 pound howitzer became the standard"
No? *see below: The 6 and 12 pound shot in guns became standard for field units. The 9-pound was no longer used but the 18-pdr and 32-pdr field howitzers were listed by Mordecai as being in use in 1848. The 18-pdr fell out of the 1850 Ordnance manual (2nd edition,) but the 24-pdr and 32-pdr field howitzer were still there, as well as in the 1861 version.

The 1841 Ordnance Manual did refer to "Patterns." It listed the 32-pdr and 42-pdr Sea Coast, along with the 8", 10", and 13" mortars as all being pattern 1840. No mention of patterns in the 1850 manual. The 1861 manual print out showing models is above.

* The ordnance manual did not set policy, but is a compendium of practices and procedures for all elements found in the Army.

I have yet to run down the actual documents showing policy and standards for units.

 

[LHR Lead]

I have taken the time to collect citations regarding the creation of the 1841 that you have been seeking.

Link to National Park article establishing the 1841 model mountain howitzer designation:

The 1841 Mountain Howitzer (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

Link to NPS article on 1841 mountain howitzer ammunition:

https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/ammunition-for-the-1841-mountain-4howitzer.htm

Links to articles about various aspects of the 1841 mountain howitzer.

Portable Civil War Artillery: The Mountain Howitzer – Iron Brigader

A Closer Look: Civil War Bronze 12-pounder Mountain Howitzer With Extremely Rare Original Carriage And Limber

Today we take a closer look at a Civil War bronze 12-pounder mountain howitzer, with its accompanying extremely rare original carriage and limber.

www.historicalpublicationsllc.com

https://archive.library.unr.edu/public/repositories/3/archival_objects/88504

my point exactly, they are listed as 1835 and 1841. The pattern was approved in 1836 and none were made in 1841

 

[LHR Lead]

BUYER BEWARE!!!

Poulin's Antiques and Auctions, Inc. | Premier Firearms and Militaria Auctions

It is owned by the US Government.

 

[James Brenner]

Here's a thought: it wasn't until 1841 that Secretary Poinsett approved the use of bronze over iron for field artillery. Several reasons delayed its acceptance that included cost, Congressional pressure, and foundry capability. This, despite Ordnance Department preference going back to the 1832 Board. So, perhaps M1841 refers as much to the metal as it does to the individual pieces.

 

[James Brenner]

BUYER BEWARE!!!

Poulin's Antiques and Auctions, Inc. | Premier Firearms and Militaria Auctions

It is owned by the US Government.

Details, please.

Thanks

 

[James Brenner]

As an aside (and in case anyone's interested) of the 12 original mountain howitzers, 3 went to Florida, 2 went to Fort Monroe, and the other 7 went into storage at Watervliet.

 

[LHR Lead]

Details, please.

Thanks

It was donated to the Terre Haute Country club by the 64th Congress, Session I, Chap 466, Act of Sep 8, 1916. It was to be used on the grounds of said club on the site of old Fort Harrison.

The problem is at the bottom of the act:
"Provided further, That each and every article of the condemned military equipment covered by this act shall be subject at all times to the order of the Secretary of War."