Lincoln must die!!!

[5fish]

If you had the power to keep President Lincoln from going to Ford's Theater on April 15, 1865, you knew if you were to stop him from going you would be changing history forever and if you let him go he would be dead by morning.

Think about it. Would America our nation be better off if Lincoln had lived beyond April 15, 1865 or worst off?

If Lincoln had lived, we assume the Reconstruction period of our nation would have been better manager. This may be true but at a high cost to our nation growth in character and spirit. You ask, what high cost to our nation..?

If Lincoln had lived and manage the Reconstruction period better, we would not have the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution or those early Civil Right laws of the 1870's. The 14th and 15th amendments in the 20th century became the cornerstone of the Civil Rights legal attack against segregation and those 1870's Civil Rights laws were the blue print for the Civil Rights laws that help end segregation in our nation in the 20th century.

If Lincoln had manage the Reconstruction period, he had a plan to give partial rights, partial land ownership, and in general just partial equality to the Freedmen(X-Slaves). I believe his plan would have never gone beyond this concept of only partial rights for Black Americans and it would have carried over until today.

Instead of Segregation, Lincoln would have given us Segregation Lite and it would have keep Black Americans as second class citizens well into the 21th century. Lincolns partial equality in the long run would have helped the Segregationist keep Black America as second class citizens...Without the 14th and 15th amendments there would have been no legal attack against Lincoln's Segregation Lite and without the 1870's Civil Rights laws as precedent no guide for civil right laws against Lincoln's Segregation Lite in the 20th century.

If Lincoln had lived our nation in the long run would have been a lesser nation in character and spirit because the slaves he gave freedom to would never have achieved equal status with their White America cousins. His version Segregation Lite would have given them a portion of equality and never able to achieve full equality making all within our borders lesser....

If you could have prevented President Lincoln form going to Ford's Theater, you could not have stopped him for it would have doom our nation to achieve less then the greatness our nation will achieve with him die.

Lincoln must die on April 15 1865 for our nation to become the great leader of the Free People of the world in the decades following his death. Lincoln must die so the slaves he freed came achieve equality with their White American cousins in the decades following his death. Lincoln must die so our nation can achieve the vision our Founding Fathers proposed three score and seven years before Lincoln spoke at Gettysburg of the nation where all men are created equal....


Lincoln must die......

 

[lauren777]

Although I do agree that in order for history to be what it is now Lincoln would have had to be assassinated, I don't feel like anyone can predict what would have happened had Lincoln lived. A president doesn't have absolute power. It would have been very difficult for Lincoln to have put through unpopular amendments. Also society and culture responds in unpredictable ways and you can't say having some rights given would have heeded reaching the rights we all have now. Things could have even progressed faster.

Lauren

 

[ole]

I agree with Lauren. It doesn't follow that this wouldn't have happened unless that did. Or vice versa.

Given the bias of the north and south against the black man, segregation would remain. What I'm thinking is that partial, token equality would have given industrious blacks a chance to show that they could work and prosper -- thus winning some respect, possibly admiration, but at least a chance to demonstrate that the black family could work and think.

 

[Glorybound]

Great post, fish, thanks, and I like your term "Reconstruction lite". I think the country, especially of course, the south, would've had a much easier time of it during reconstruction, had Lincoln lived. Like Ole, I think prejudices would be just as strong and it would be tough for the ex-slave for a long time to come.

However, having Lincoln's hand at the helm could not have hurt at all, and I believe would've helped a great deal.

I just moved here to Dallas, and the first place I visited was the Texas School Book Depository, the 6th floor museum, from where Kennedy was shot. Bonny Blue Flag took me there. I was wondering the very same thing you are asking concerning Lincoln, but of Kennedy instead, when viewing Dealey Plaza from the infamous sniper's nest window. An X marks the spot on the street pavement where Kennedy took the first bullet.

We'll never know what sort of positive or negative impact either man would have had on the country, with any certainty, but in my heart I think they both would've been good for us.



Lee

 

[cedarstripper]

no 14th or 15th?

I smiled at the "segregation Lite" too. I'm just wondering now if your fridge is stocked with beer or yogurt.

Why do we make the assumption that the Congress with Lincoln in office is less likely to pass a 14th and 15th amendment? Should these amendments be considered as punitive towards the South?

 

[5fish]

Reaction--

I smiled at the "segregation Lite" too. I'm just wondering now if your fridge is stocked with beer or yogurt.

Why do we make the assumption that the Congress with Lincoln in office is less likely to pass a 14th and 15th amendment? Should these amendments be considered as punitive towards the South?

I would not call them(14th & 15th amendments) punitive towards the south but reaction towards the embittered Southern whites behavior toward the Freedmen of the south by the Radicals in Congress.

With Lincoln in office I doubt the embittered Southern whites would have behave in the way they did towards the Freedmen. Lincoln was sending out signals that he was not going to give the Freedmen equality with the whites and he was developing a program about partial integration with the whites over a 25 year period....If the embittered Southern whites tow the line with Lincoln the 14th & 15th amendments would have never come to pass...along with any Civil Rights laws in the 1870's...

 

[5fish]

If he had lived

I have deleted this post because it was obviously misinterpreted by people reading it as truth not as the Hypothetical argument it was intended to be......Sorry for the misunderstanding...

 

[unionblue]

5Fish,

Sources for the above quotes you give would be nice, the ones that use Lincoln's supposed ideas concerning blacks and limited emancipation.

As a personal observation, I tend to think you are too 'black & white' on the topic, not giving enough emphasis on the subtle shades of grey that can occur if Lincoln had lived.

IMO.
Unionblue

 

[Glorybound]

by Cedar:
Why do we make the assumption that the Congress with Lincoln in office is less likely to pass a 14th and 15th amendment? Should these amendments be considered as punitive towards the South?

I just think Lincoln could've "finessed" the Congress more persuasively using his considerable intellect, compassion, and leadership, more so than anybody else.

Of course, I have no way of knowing if he would indeed have had an easier time of it than anyone else, it's more or less just a suspicion or feeling on my part that he would have, just by virtue of his considerable people skills.



Lee

 

[5fish]

5Fish,

Sources for the above quotes you give would be nice, the ones that use Lincoln's supposed ideas concerning blacks and limited emancipation.

As a personal observation, I tend to think you are too 'black & white' on the topic, not giving enough emphasis on the subtle shades of grey that can occur if Lincoln had lived.

IMO.
Unionblue

Unionblue

Those quotes were made up to show how segregationist would use use Lincoln idea of partial rights for the freedmen to support segregation lets say in the 20th century years after his death.

If Lincoln had lived and had never given full equality to the freedmen of the south, I propose they would never achieve it. Lincoln is almost a god in our American mythology and his symbol of not supporting rights for freedmen would be a powerful card the segregationist would use....

Our Civil war is like a Greek tragedy and Lincoln being the main character must suffer death to bring the tragedy to a climax....Our hero victorious but never enjoy his victory

Some thoughts for all to ponder...

 

[ole]

Unionblue

Those quotes were made up to show how segregationist would use use Lincoln idea of partial rights for the freedmen to support segregation lets say in the 20th century years after his death.

If Lincoln had lived and had never given full equality to the freedmen of the south, I propose they would never achieve it. Lincoln is almost a god in our American mythology and his symbol of not supporting rights for freedmen would be a powerful card the segregationist would use....

Our Civil war is like a Greek tragedy and Lincoln being the main character must suffer death to bring the tragedy to a climax....Our hero victorious but never enjoy his victory Some thoughts for all to ponder...

One thing Lincoln never did was push too hard. He waited until the time was right and jinked up the bits of acceptance to where it might work. He literally dragged the populace to where he thought it ought to be.

Douglass was honked, until he realized that Lincoln was actually working on it. Although Douglass wasn't satisfied, he did realize that a process had been established. Nuance. Nothing close to blunt.

Ole

 

[5fish]

No False anything----

Mr. Blue you are my hero. We shouldn't ask for, or settle for, anything but the truth. Fish, you could've made your point without posting the falsities. Mr. Blue was right to press the issue.




Lee

OK

It is obvious that post seven is misunderstood. Those quotes were examples of quotes or arguments people would said in the future had Lincoln lived and never gave Freedmen equality.

My point being is that Lincoln being a God like figure in our nation mythology and since he did not give Freedmen full equality so why should any future generations of Americans if the Great Lincoln did not give Freedmen equality....

I was trying to show the type of arguments Segregationist would use Lincoln in to support thier political positions. Remember I am trying to show what would have happen if Lincoln had live and not been killed in april of 1865.

Again Post 7, I was trying to show how Segregationist was use Lincoln image to support thier views if Lincoln had lived and never gave Freedmen full equality. Sorry. if it was misunderstood by those who read it, I will go back and delete it for it is obvious I did a poor job of trying to get my point across----------Sorry. I never implied those quotes were truthful but only examples of an arguments that never happen because Lincoln never lived pass April 15 1865...

Sorry for any misunderstandings this hypothetical got away for me it looks like-----

NO Falsities was posted by me ever on this board since I have been on it----

 

[Glorybound]

Fish, no need to apologize. I did misunderstand you. Thanks for your clarification. I gladly withdraw my most recent post on this thread.


Lee

 

[lauren777]

Educate me

I am very new here and thought I knew some about the civil war until I read posts on here. So I am only asking this to be educated further.

In what little I've read (compared to most on this board) I did know Lincoln planned a more gradual reconstruction, but I don't see how he could have said what he said in the Gettysburg Address "that all men are created equal" and not done that?

Again I am saying this with very basic knowledge and probably am missing something.

Lauren

 

[5fish]

I am very new here and thought I knew some about the civil war until I read posts on here. So I am only asking this to be educated further.

In what little I've read (compared to most on this board) I did know Lincoln planned a more gradual reconstruction, but I don't see how he could have said what he said in the Gettysburg Address "that all men are created equal" and not done that?

Again I am saying this with very basic knowledge and probably am missing something.

Lauren

Please reread that last line of the first post, I think I wrote it right. The last line is referring to our Founding Fathers vision of all men created equal....not Lincoln's Gettysburg address. I think I used the Forefathers so I will do back and change it to Founding Fathers...

I hope this helps...hope I did write that last line correctly...

 

[lauren777]

Lincoln was sending out signals that he was not going to give the Freedmen equality with the whites and he was developing a program about partial integration with the whites over a 25 year period....If the embittered Southern whites tow the line with Lincoln the 14th & 15th amendments would have never come to pass...along with any Civil Rights laws in the 1870's...

It was actually this post which made me think about it. You say here he was sending out signals that he was not going to give freedmen equality but I think the Gettysburg Address did actually say those very words "that all men are created equal". Unless there was some underlying political scheme he wasn't telling the public (which politicians NEVER do..haha).

Lauren

 

[5fish]

Correct--

It was actually this post which made me think about it. You say here he was sending out signals that he was not going to give freedmen equality but I think the Gettysburg Address did actually say those very words "that all men are created equal". Unless there was some underlying political scheme he wasn't telling the public (which politicians NEVER do..haha).

Lauren

Yes, those words are in the first line of the Gettysburg Address:

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."

Form knowledge handed down to us, Lincoln had no intention of giving Freedmen equality with the white Southerns. It is implied he wanted to slowly integrate the Freedmen with the Southern whites.

One can ask the question "What was Lincoln and our Forefathers referring to when they use the phrase "all men are created equal"?

It seems they were not referring to Black Americans when they utter those words...

 

[PvtClewell]

One can ask the question "What was Lincoln and our Forefathers referring to when they use the phrase "all men are created equal"?

It seems they were not referring to Black Americans when they utter those words...

Well, not to quarrel, but rather to make a point of reference, John Jay founded the New York Manumission Society in 1785, and Alexander Hamilton was also member. Equality seemingly did have support from some of the founding fathers...

 

[OpnDownfall]

Lincoln's 'all men created equal' phrase came from the Declaration of Independence, the signing of which Lincoln believed was the birth of the Union.
"..., that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."(emphasis mine)
Unless one is of the opinion that the slave was not created by God or was not a man, it cannot be argued that it referred only to white men of english ancestors.

 

[timewalker]

I would conjecture that we really don't know where Lincoln stood on Civil Rights and black equality. Lincoln was, above all else, a politician. He was excellent at telling the people what they wanted to hear. He belived in abolition, but promised not to touch slavery where it existed. Until it became not only possible but necessary and then he abolished it.

He didn't think that he could sell the concept of gradual emancipation without colonization, so he preached colonization. Until it became clear that gradual emancipation was a non-starter in the border states and colonization was unworkable (which I suspect he know all along) and then he dropped it like a hot potato.

From what I have read of Lincoln, reconstruction would have proceeded along different lines, but it is very, very hard to say what those would have been. Lincoln was a master at maniuplating the more radical wings of his party and that would have softened reconstruction. But to what end? Hard to say.