Lincoln (2012)

He's not referring to Ely Parker, but to the officer in the War Department with whom Lincoln muses about Euclid, among other things. That actor, Adam Driver, is not Native American, or at least is not identified as such in his Wiki profile. The character, Captain Samuel Beckwith, was a real officer who served as Grant's telegrapher and cryptographer during his campaigns. I believe his presence at the War Department in Washington is a bit of artistic license.

101CombatVet seems to be simply rattling off a series of things that *seem* wrong about the movie to him, without bothering to check -- as UnionBlue has taken time to do -- whether they're actually correct or not. He's welcome to do that, but a number of the things he's described as being "unrealistic" were entirely real.

Keep in mind, too, that what's "realistic" is, at its core, a subjective judgement.
 
He's not referring to Ely Parker, but to the officer in the War Department with whom Lincoln muses about Euclid, among other things. That actor, Adam Driver, is not Native American, or at least is not identified as such in his Wiki profile. The character, Captain Samuel Beckwith, was a real officer who served as Grant's telegrapher and cryptographer during his campaigns. I believe his presence at the War Department in Washington is a bit of artistic license.

Keep in mind, too, that what's "realistic" is, at its core, a subjective judgement.

I call it as it is without sugarcoating.

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=35125
 
I noticed his portrayal on Grant's staff... believable.


He's not referring to Ely Parker, but to the officer in the War Department with whom Lincoln muses about Euclid, among other things. That actor, Adam Driver, is not Native American, or at least is not identified as such in his Wiki profile. The character, Captain Samuel Beckwith, was a real officer who served as Grant's telegrapher and cryptographer during his campaigns. I believe his presence at the War Department in Washington is a bit of artistic license.

101CombatVet seems to be simply rattling off a series of things that *seem* wrong about the movie to him, without bothering to check -- as UnionBlue has taken time to do -- whether they're actually correct or not. He's welcome to do that, but a number of the things he's described as being "unrealistic" were entirely real.

Keep in mind, too, that what's "realistic" is, at its core, a subjective judgement.

Oops my apologies. Ely Parker, in the movie as in the period photographs, stands out amongst his fellow officers. The actor in that scene (Adam Driver) did not, at least to me.

I'm sure the telegraph office scene is fictional. As is the entire screenplay for Lincoln. As is every screenplay ever written. Some scenes may or may not have a historical basis, but the writer still must put words in peoples mouths, and move them about.

I was entertained by Lincoln, and the overall arc of the movie is generally pretty close, IMHO.
 
Or more likely an exaggerated truth. So you know for a fact that Stevens screwed his house keeper?

What the movie does is lead people to look into the relationship that was pictured in the movie, and do some research. I don't know what Stevens' biographers have said on the subject, but based on the source provided by UnionBlue, Stevens did have a long term relationship with Lydia Hamilton Smith; we don't know how intimate they were.

And as UB found out, this source talks about the woman whom we know, at the least, was a major part of Stevens' life:

As Thaddeus Stevens' supporter and confidante, Lydia Hamilton Smith played a major role in his life, and he in hers. A widow with two young sons when she became Stevens' housekeeper in 1847, for 25 years she managed his home and businesses in Lancaster and also accompanied him to Washington, D.C. to run his household and to serve as hostess.
Their partnership afforded her the opportunity to gain the skills and social contacts that helped her later become a successful businesswoman. She eventually owned and managed a number of properties in Lancaster, Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. – an extraordinary accomplishment for a woman of that era, particularly a woman of color. Her boarding house in Washington drew some of the most powerful people of the time, including members of Congress and foreign dignitaries.
Despite rumors and innuendos about their relationship, Stevens and Smith courageously continued their remarkable partnership in an era of strict segregation. Correspondence and third-person accounts indicate that theirs was a cordial and respectful friendship. He consistently treated her as an equal and with great deference at a time when most whites considered blacks inferior. In turn, she expertly managed his household and businesses, freeing him to pursue the landmark legislation that transformed American society.
As recent archaeological excavations behind Stevens' home indicate, it is likely that Stevens and Smith cooperated on another very important venture as well – the Underground Railroad. A number of archaeologists who have visited the underground cistern discovered on the property have confirmed its probable use as a hideaway for runaway slaves. Ample documentation exists that Stevens regularly assisted black fugitives and paid spies to report on slave catchers active in the area. While less definitive information exists on Smith's role in the Underground Railroad, research is continuing. However, the nature of their partnership, the proximity of her home to the cistern, and her connections in the local African-American community offer tantalizing clues.

That's cool stuff to know. My father's side of the family has roots in Southeastern PA, and I wonder if we have any connection to the Smiths.

- Alan
 
What the movie does is lead people to look into the relationship that was pictured in the movie, and do some research. I don't know what Stevens' biographers have said on the subject, but based on the source provided by UnionBlue, Stevens did have a long term relationship with Lydia Hamilton Smith; we don't know how intimate they were.

And as UB found out, this source talks about the woman whom we know, at the least, was a major part of Stevens' life:

As Thaddeus Stevens' supporter and confidante, Lydia Hamilton Smith played a major role in his life, and he in hers. A widow with two young sons when she became Stevens' housekeeper in 1847, for 25 years she managed his home and businesses in Lancaster and also accompanied him to Washington, D.C. to run his household and to serve as hostess.
Their partnership afforded her the opportunity to gain the skills and social contacts that helped her later become a successful businesswoman. She eventually owned and managed a number of properties in Lancaster, Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. – an extraordinary accomplishment for a woman of that era, particularly a woman of color. Her boarding house in Washington drew some of the most powerful people of the time, including members of Congress and foreign dignitaries.
Despite rumors and innuendos about their relationship, Stevens and Smith courageously continued their remarkable partnership in an era of strict segregation. Correspondence and third-person accounts indicate that theirs was a cordial and respectful friendship. He consistently treated her as an equal and with great deference at a time when most whites considered blacks inferior. In turn, she expertly managed his household and businesses, freeing him to pursue the landmark legislation that transformed American society.
As recent archaeological excavations behind Stevens' home indicate, it is likely that Stevens and Smith cooperated on another very important venture as well – the Underground Railroad. A number of archaeologists who have visited the underground cistern discovered on the property have confirmed its probable use as a hideaway for runaway slaves. Ample documentation exists that Stevens regularly assisted black fugitives and paid spies to report on slave catchers active in the area. While less definitive information exists on Smith's role in the Underground Railroad, research is continuing. However, the nature of their partnership, the proximity of her home to the cistern, and her connections in the local African-American community offer tantalizing clues.

That's cool stuff to know. My father's side of the family has roots in Southeastern PA, and I wonder if we have any connection to the Smiths.

- Alan

That in itself is a good story worthy of more research. I have issue with artist license which misleads the viewer. The real and truthful story is much better in my opinion.... so tell it.
 
Still artist license in the extreme... the USCT reenactors I've met over the years don't talk smack like that. :smile:

Well, I can't comment on that.

FYI, I looked at the script, which is here. One of the two black soldiers in the early scene is identified as being from a Massachusetts Cavalry unit! So it seems he's a good actor and you have good ears.

- Alan
 
That in itself is a good story worthy of more research. I have issue with artist license which misleads the viewer. The real and truthful story is much better in my opinion.... so tell it.
Go ahead, since you're the one feeling the aching need for it. I did not find what was shown in the movie to be misleading. Tell us how you would do it differently.
 
In terms of the standards of the day, Lincoln was a proponent of equality. In 1854, Lincoln said in Peoria,

When the white man governs himself, that is self-government; but when he governs himself and also governs another man, that is more than self-government — that is despotism. If the negro is a man, why then my ancient faith teaches me that "all men are created equal," and that there can be no moral right in connection with one man's making a slave of another.

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." This informed Lincoln's definition of equality: he believed that all men were entitled to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. This would mean that blacks should not be enslaved - slavery deprived them of their natural rights.

But inalienable natural rights were not the same thing as civil rights, which would mean, for example, equal voting rights. Based on 19th century attitudes and beliefs, Lincoln did take a position in favor of equality, but his position seems intolerable to current American values.

- Alan
Yeah...
...but they didn't give that explanation in the movie.
 
Yeah...
...but they didn't give that explanation in the movie.

You're correct. Actually, there's a lot of thing they didn't explain in the movie. For example, we've discussed that Thad Stevens did in fact have a long... association with his black housekeeper. There is a story behind that 4-5 minute scene in the movie, but that story is not told.

I have a certain set of expectations for these movies. I begin with the notion that even a 2-3 hour movie cannot contain all of the history that is associated with any particular person or event(s), even if the movie claims to be "historically accurate." I accept that "artistic license" will be taken, and I accept that a lot of history might not be explained, or fit into, a film.

So: to me, these movies are a starting point, not an end in themselves, in terms of informing us of the history. And consider the starting point that the movie Lincoln provides. How many people even know or appreciate that the 13th amendment was controversial in its day? How many people, to this day, don't know that there were black soldiers in the Union army? Consider this recent post on this page:
Lots of things (in the movie don't seem realistic)... to name a few:
Black soldiers speaking like Harvard grads.
Celebrations in the streets after the passing of the 13th Amendment.
Thaddeus Stevens sleeping with his black house keeper - unproven.
Blacks in the House when the vote is cast.... really?
Well it turns out: there were literate blacks from Massachusetts in the Union army; there were street celebrations in DC when the amendment passed; Stevens did indeed have a long term relationship with his housekeeper (although we {here on this board} don't know if it was intimate); and African Americans were present when the vote for the Amendment passes. So, a board member has learned that several of things he dismissed as inauthentic were in fact real. I think that's the best a movie can do.

I think I posed this question in an earlier thread: having seen this movie, is the average person better off in terms of what they know about the past, or not? I think the vast majority of people who saw the movie learned a lot of stuff they didn't know. It would be nice to think that people followed-up by going on the Internet or cracking a book to get more information. Not that I think that will actually happen for the vast majority of movie viewers.

- Alan
 

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