Lee is overrated.

Scott1967

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Didn't Grant also lead men in to battle at Belmont, Missouri , Champion Hill, Vicksburg , Ft. Donaldson and Henry? I might of let off a few other battles.
Grants men fought hard and well during the battles of the Overland Campaign. They suffered heavy loss's but in the end the prevailed.
Leftyhunter
He did Lefty but I was leaning more to set piece major battles , And I agree the AoP fought very hard and were on the offensive which incurs larger casualties but ill stick to my word that Lee was worshipped by his men I don't think Grant ever achieved that status their is also an incident right after the last charge at Cold Harbour on the 3rd when Grant refused an armistice to retrieve the wounded for two days many died because of this and it did not sit well with the men or some of his staff.

It would be interesting find out how Grants men viewed him we know 76% of the army voted republican in the 1864 elections was that because they believed in what Grant was doing the sense that they could touch and feel victory in Nov 1864.
 

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leftyhunter

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I doubt your statistics for Southern white unionists if you mean the eleven Confederate States. Michael Honey from your ”War within the Confederacy” thread had the numbers about right: “In the eleven Confederate states 48,072 whites joined the Union army”
www.ncgenweb.us/ncuv/honey1.htm
Another source: http://www.civil-war.net/pages/troops_furnished_losses.html
Has I have stated to you many times Current shows in his research that half of the Unionist soldiers enlisted in out of state regiments. In my thread " who has Unionist ancestors"? Posters stated that their Unionist ancestors joined out of state regiments. Also Honey doesn't take into account Unionist guerrillas and home guards.
Leftyhunter
 
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leftyhunter

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He did Lefty but I was leaning more to set piece major battles , And I agree the AoP fought very hard and were on the offensive which incurs larger casualties but ill stick to my word that Lee was worshipped by his men I don't think Grant ever achieved that status their is also an incident right after the last charge at Cold Harbour on the 3rd when Grant refused an armistice to retrieve the wounded for two days many died because of this and it did not sit well with the men or some of his staff.

It would be interesting find out how Grants men viewed him we know 76% of the army voted republican in the 1864 elections was that because they believed in what Grant was doing the sense that they could touch and feel victory in Nov 1864.
Without scientific polling we just can't be know how soldiers in the AoP felt about Grant. We do know that they fought well and they certainly didn't desert in mass or defect to the Confederacy.
I didn't know that 76 percent of the AoP voted against their former commander or is the 76% figure includes all Union soldiers?
Definitely by November of 1864 it was clearly apparent that the Confederacy was on its last legs. @cash described the failure to have an armistice after the battle of Cold Harbor was due to some complex circumstances.
Leftyhunter
 

cash

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Lee also fought more major battles than any other General of course he was going to lose a ton of men.

Grant had fought one major battle at Shiloh , Lee was constantly fighting major battles from mid 1862 to mid 1863.
Fort Donelson
Corinth
The Vicksburg Campaign, which included Grand Gulf, Snyder's Bluff, Port Gibson, Raymond, Jackson, Champion Hill, Big Black River Bridge, and Vicksburg.

These are from JFC Fuller's Grant and Lee.

Grant-Lee-1.jpg
Grant-Lee-2.jpg
Grant-Lee-3.jpg
 

CSA Today

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Has I have stated to you many times Current shows in his research that half if the Unionist soldiers enlisted in out of state regiments. In my thread " who has Unionist ancestors"? Posters stated that their Unionist ancestors joined out of state regiments. Also Honey doesn't take into account Unionist guerrillas and home guards.
Leftyhunter
Unionist guerrillas and unionists Home Guard (in states where they may have existed) wouldn't have accounted for over half the total.
 

CSA Today

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He did Lefty but I was leaning more to set piece major battles , And I agree the AoP fought very hard and were on the offensive which incurs larger casualties but ill stick to my word that Lee was worshipped by his men I don't think Grant ever achieved that status their is also an incident right after the last charge at Cold Harbour on the 3rd when Grant refused an armistice to retrieve the wounded for two days many died because of this and it did not sit well with the men or some of his staff.

It would be interesting find out how Grants men viewed him we know 76% of the army voted republican in the 1864 elections was that because they believed in what Grant was doing the sense that they could touch and feel victory in Nov 1864.
That likely had more to do with there being no secret ballot in 1864.
 

Scott1967

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Fort Donelson
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The Vicksburg Campaign, which included Grand Gulf, Snyder's Bluff, Port Gibson, Raymond, Jackson, Champion Hill, Big Black River Bridge, and Vicksburg.

These are from JFC Fuller's Grant and Lee.

View attachment 258746View attachment 258747View attachment 258748
Thx Cash , But again I'm not saying Grant wasn't short of battlefield experience just that it wasn't on the scale of what Lee was having to fight , Grant had fought in one large land battle at Shiloh , Lee had fought by mid 1863 in 5 of the biggest battles and bloodiest battles, Sorry if I didn't express myself properly.
 
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Thx Cash , But again I'm not saying Grant wasn't short of battlefield experience just that it wasn't on the scale of what Lee was having to fight , Grant had fought in one large land battle at Shiloh , Lee had fought by mid 1863 in 5 of the biggest battles and bloodiest battles, Sorry if I didn't express myself properly.
So, Vicksburg and Chattanooga were not large land battles? There were over 100,000 combatants at both battles - about the same size as Antietam. And in the Overland campaign, Grant pushed Lee from the Rapidan to the Petersburg defenses in six weeks.
 

cash

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Thx Cash , But again I'm not saying Grant wasn't short of battlefield experience just that it wasn't on the scale of what Lee was having to fight , Grant had fought in one large land battle at Shiloh , Lee had fought by mid 1863 in 5 of the biggest battles and bloodiest battles, Sorry if I didn't express myself properly.
I expect we would have to compare forces engaged. My point is that no matter whom Lee faced, there were going to be large casualties, so any battle Lee fought is going to be a bloody battle. So "bloodiest battles," isn't necessarily a measure of Lee's experience.
 

Scott1967

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So, Vicksburg and Chattanooga were not large land battles? There were over 100,000 combatants at both battles - about the same size as Antietam. And in the Overland campaign, Grant pushed Lee from the Rapidan to the Petersburg defenses in six weeks.
Sorry Jim I think were getting our wires crossed the point I'm trying to make is pre mid 1863 Grants experience of large land battles consisted of Shiloh if you want to count Vicksburg and Chattanooga as large scale land battles then we might beg to differ.

Yes Grant did indeed push Lee back in the Overland campaign at great cost mainly because he was on the offensive and also because he had never fought against anyone like Lee , To tell you the Truth I don't think Lee could have done much more in the Overland campaign you cant fault him but he did make a crucial mistake when Grant crossed the James undetected.

You could say Grant lost every battle in the Overland campaign but Grants objective was to bring Lee to battle which he did and any other Union General I think would have turned back after the Wilderness which is testament to Grants dogged nature.

Grant was a great general when fighting a war of attrition with better resources and manpower he was also tactically astute , Im not so sure of the Grant as a field general in control of a major battle after all he got caught with his pants down at Shiloh on the first day and lost every battle in the Overland campaign or suffered extreme casualties granted he was on the offensive.
 

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***Posted as Moderator***
A reminder: the topic of this thread is the assertion that "Lee is overrated".
Please stay on topic.
 

Scott1967

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I expect we would have to compare forces engaged. My point is that no matter whom Lee faced, there were going to be large casualties, so any battle Lee fought is going to be a bloody battle. So "bloodiest battles," isn't necessarily a measure of Lee's experience.
No I agree but then again Lee had to take risks he couldn't just let AoP dictate when and where to fight that would have been suicide considering he was always outnumbered with inferior artillery luckily for Lee Burnside and Pope were willing lambs to the slaughter but Hooker and McClellan did represent a credible threat.
 

Jamieva

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So he can’t ask you to clarify your position ? And I know you wern’t talking to me but he is new and willing to discuss so ease up.
He was coached on the quoting stuff already. And someone that starts the discussion with Lee should never have commanded more than a regiment is not willing to discuss. There's no "discussion" if his response to every retort to his theory is "no".
 

Gene Green

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He was coached on the quoting stuff already. And someone that starts the discussion with Lee should never have commanded more than a regiment is not willing to discuss. There's no "discussion" if his response to every retort to his theory is "no".
So you were willing to change your position ? You simply didn’t convince him yet. Needs more discussion, not dismissal. Just ain’t neighborly. What Lee should have commanded is debatable but it shouldn’t have been the Army of Northern Virginia. If you don’t agree do your best to convince me. U S Grant asked several times for anyone to do so.
I don’t know what you mean by “quoting stuff”
 

wausaubob

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Anyone described in terms of perfection is overrated. Everyone has made mistakes. Its best to admit it and move on.
 

Jamieva

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So you were willing to change your position ? You simply didn’t convince him yet. Needs more discussion, not dismissal. Just ain’t neighborly. What Lee should have commanded is debatable but it shouldn’t have been the Army of Northern Virginia. If you don’t agree do your best to convince me. U S Grant asked several times for anyone to do so.
I don’t know what you mean by “quoting stuff”

No I'm not willing to change my position that Lee gave the south, specifically the ANV, the best chance to win. When he took over, the union army was 8 miles from Richmond. They didn't get that close again for over 2 years. The other major Confederate army won 1 battle in the entire war. ONE!!!!

Now, having said that, Lee is not perfect. I don't think anyone that is reasonable would say that. Lee made mistakes. Malvern Hill, staying to fight at Antietam, Pickett's charge. They all make mistakes. But to suggest that Lee is the reason the south lost the war is beyond what I can comprehend based on the way it played out.

So @Gene Green who would've been a better selection to lead the ANV and somehow win the war if it's not Lee?
 


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