Knives

[gc45]

Asking if real civil war knives actually exist and if so, were they issued by either one or both sides, were they marked US or CSA? We often see pics with questions about is my knife real or, was it used in the civil war? If these knives do exist, can someone post photos of their collection along with what you might know of them, provenance if you have it because, I personally have never seen one and would like to.

 

[R. Porter]

I would start with the book shown below. It is concerned with Confederate Bowie knives so doesn't cover those used by the North or folding knives used by either side. It has lots of pictures and provides what is known about the knives as of the time the book was published. There are other knife books but I'm not a knife collector so l can't really give much guidance.

 

[captaindrew]

They were not issued by either side. A supposed Confederate knife marked CSA is a huge red flag. Very few items at all were marked that way.

 

[JoeCollector]

GC45 you should also take a look at Lee Hadaway's book. Good reference.

 

[gc45]

Thanks to all, I sort of thought they were not an issue item but wanted to ask. Certainly many soldiers left home with their knife, perhaps more southern than northern makes sense as they had more need on the home front. Thant none were issued is no surprise either.

 

[Old Soldier]

I was going to make a comment about the Bowie knife - until I read up on it. James Bowie was a noted knife-fighter and his knives were made for him by brother Rezin Bowie. Initially they resembled a butcher's knife and owed a lot to Spanish pirates 'boarding knives'. The main attributes were a blade about 9" long - single edged , heavy blade with a simple wooden grip.

The adaptions for fighting were a crosspiece - a 'guard' between ricasso and handle - and the addition of a 'clip point' - a point closer to the centerline to facilitate a thrusting attack. The drop in the spine of the knife was about a quarter of the spine length from the point, often sharpened to allow a 'back slash'. This is now termed a 'bowie point'. The blade was quite heavy to give some weight and momentum to the cutting edge

This is the 'traditional' Bowie knife - designed and used as a fighting knife.

It is often described as a cut-down cutlass which had a similar heavy blade for hacking rope and rigging, but had a 24" blade. This, itself, was similar to the old historic/British 'hanger' or German 'messer' - an even shorter hacking blade with a simple handguard carried by woodsmen (and adopted by archers - those same woodsmen - and infantry) which is where, I suspect, most of these civil war knives originated. They were the Ka-Bar of their day.

They would have been something carried for use in the woods and field . Over time, many were shortened for portability - a belt knife - or because the blade broke! The handguard was necessary even in the woods, but was rarely as decorative as the one above.. It was not as heavy or cumbersome as an ax and used more as a tool than a weapon. Like the bowie, the top 6" of the blade spine were sharpened. Most will have been made by local blacksmiths rather than cutlers and, as the book cover shows, were very simple in design. They were not 'war weapons', but something which was to hand and could be used as one.

 

[Joe Whitworth]

FWIW folding pocket knives are common metal detecting finds in CW camps. I dug a piece of forged fighting knife, the point is non clip point style. Obviously snapped off the piece is over 6 inches and way heavier than any butcher knife.

 

[Sgt. Tyree]

The heyday of the Bowie knife was in the 1830s, '40s, and '50s. It was apparently on its way to becoming a thing of the past by the Civil War because the revolver was becoming widespread.

I was going to make a comment about the Bowie knife - until I read up on it. James Bowie was a noted knife-fighter and his knives were made for him by brother Rezin Bowie.

The knife James Bowie used in the 1827 Sandbar Fight was indeed made for him by Rezin (pronounced "Reason"). But I was under the impression that a later knife or knives used by Bowie were forged by James Black.

Initially they resembled a butcher's knife and owed a lot to Spanish pirates 'boarding knives'. The main attributes were a blade about 9" long - single edged , heavy blade with a simple wooden grip.

Correct. The knife Bowie used in the Sandbar Fight was a butcher knife. But apparently by the time Bowie fell at the Alamo the classic design was being used.

The adaptions for fighting were a crosspiece - a 'guard' between ricasso and handle - and the addition of a 'clip point' - a point closer to the centerline to facilitate a thrusting attack. The drop in the spine of the knife was about a quarter of the spine length from the point, often sharpened to allow a 'back slash'. This is now termed a 'bowie point'. The blade was quite heavy to give some weight and momentum to the cutting edge

Apparently, there were, broadly speaking, two styles of employment. One was based on saber fencing and the knife was held cutting edge down. This style was probably a bit more refined and was likely the style used by the Creole dandies (they even had schools for it).

In the second style the blade was held cutting edge up. The back could be used to block incoming slashes and you could rip up when withdrawing a thrust (can you say disembowelment?). I suspect this was more of a rough and tumble style. I can imagine it being used by flat boat crews and the riverfront crowd.

View attachment 575985
This is the 'traditional' Bowie knife - designed and used as a fighting knife.

That is a good example of the classic design. There were variations.

It is often described as a cut-down cutlass which had a similar heavy blade for hacking rope and rigging, but had a 24" blade.

I read that the late Bill Bagwell, bladesmith and Bowie historian extraordinaire, speculated that what we think of now as the classic Bowie design, may have developed from a cut down naval cutlass used by Jean Lafitte's bayou pirates.

You mentioned the weight of the blade. Apparently, it was almost impossible for two men to go Mano a Mano with Bowies and not have both of them come away cut up, sometimes seriously, because of weight of the blade made stopping it or totally avoiding it difficult. If I recall correctly, in the book Bowie Knife Fights, Fighters, and Fighting Techniques, most of the fighters studied and documented had exactly ONE Bowie knife fight under their belts, although one man had three. It seemed to often be a case of the loser died and the "winner" came away hurt.

The most notable Bowie knife fight I am aware of occurred in the legislative chamber of the Arkansas State House in 1837 when two members of the legislature disagreed over a bill. One got killed and one got cut bad. The "winner" was tried and acquitted.

I've seen Livereatin' Johnston's Bowie knife on display in the Cody, Wyoming museum. Interestingly, it doesn't have a crossguard and the clip point is not as pronounced as some other surviving Bowies. But some who have examined the knife believe it shows evidence of once having a crossguard and a longer clip point that may have been broken and sharpened back.

 

[Old Soldier]

The heyday of the Bowie knife was in the 1830s, '40s, and '50s. It was apparently on its way to becoming a thing of the past by the Civil War because the revolver was becoming widespread.



The knife James Bowie used in the 1827 Sandbar Fight was indeed made for him by Rezin (pronounced "Reason"). But I was under the impression that a later knife or knives used by Bowie were forged by James Black.



Correct. The knife Bowie used in the Sandbar Fight was a butcher knife. But apparently by the time Bowie fell at the Alamo the classic design was being used.



Apparently, there were, broadly speaking, two styles of employment. One was based on saber fencing and the knife was held cutting edge down. This style was probably a bit more refined and was likely the style used by the Creole dandies (they even had schools for it).

In the second style the blade was held cutting edge up. The back could be used to block incoming slashes and you could rip up when withdrawing a thrust (can you say disembowelment?). I suspect this was more of a rough and tumble style. I can imagine it being used by flat boat crews and the riverfront crowd.



That is a good example of the classic design. There were variations.



I read that the late Bill Bagwell, bladesmith and Bowie historian extraordinaire, speculated that what we think of now as the classic Bowie design, may have developed from a cut down naval cutlass used by Jean Lafitte's bayou pirates.

You mentioned the weight of the blade. Apparently, it was almost impossible for two men to go Mano a Mano with Bowies and not have both of them come away cut up, sometimes seriously, because of weight of the blade made stopping it or totally avoiding it difficult. If I recall correctly, in the book Bowie Knife Fights, Fighters, and Fighting Techniques, most of the fighters studied and documented had exactly ONE Bowie knife fight under their belts, although one man had three. It seemed to often be a case of the loser died and the "winner" came away hurt.

The most notable Bowie knife fight I am aware of occurred in the legislative chamber of the Arkansas State House in 1837 when two members of the legislature disagreed over a bill. One got killed and one got cut bad. The "winner" was tried and acquitted.

I've seen Livereatin' Johnston's Bowie knife on display in the Cody, Wyoming museum. Interestingly, it doesn't have a crossguard and the clip point is not as pronounced as some other surviving Bowies. But some who have examined the knife believe it shows evidence of once having a crossguard and a longer clip point that may have been broken and sharpened back.

View attachment 576731

Thanks. That added a lot to what I found out -and confirmed a lot.