Keeping bare steel rust free

[thomas.emard]

Hello all,

I'm positive this has been brought up before, but I wanted to revisit the issue over my extremely troublesome 1777 Charleville.

I clean it, I oil it heavily for storage (not petroleum based), and I put it away just like every other musket I own, but for whatever reason this little bdonkeyard absolutely refuses to stop rusting. It's never anything major, but I'm getting sick of a weekly breakdown; and I do mean that literally, every Sunday I find myself stripping down a musket I haven't even shot to correct all the random rust accruing. Last week pinpricks of rust appeared on the buttplate. This week it's pinpricks on the ramrod. A few weeks ago, pin pricks of rust on the barrel. I scour it aggressively every time I find it, but I'm wondering why the heck this SPECIFIC gun attracts rust. And more importantly, how I can i) address the problem (IE is steel wool the best method?), ii) protect the steel (long-term), iii) prevent rust from returning.


Why any nation would not blue their weapons is quite beyond me, and I'm getting to the point where if this bloody musket doesn't stop rusting, I'm going to nix the historical accuracy and have it cerakoted (I know, I'm a monster). I should note right now I'm a shooter, not a reenactor, so it's not as horrible as it sounds gentlemen. I'd very much like to keep it in original condition, but truly, I am fed up with wasting a whole day off every week to donate to fixing problems that shouldn't exist. If this is normal I pity the French quartermaster and armorers in charge of storing these, good lord what a mess that would be... I probably would have volunteered for front line duty just to avoid the incessant cleaning.

Beyond help actually cleaning it, some historical questions; did soldiers really have to deal with this on a daily basis? I can only imagine this problem gets way, way worse when muskets are left outside for weeks while on the march. So how did they deal with it?

Finally, why did the French and USA never adopt bluing (that is, until much, much later, far beyond the point where it was obvious blued was better)? It has clear advantages, are there disadvantages to consider? Seems to my eyes that it would be well worth it to save your soldiers hours and hours of cleaning. Not to mention hours and hours of complaining to you!

 

[Jimklag]

Hello all,

I'm positive this has been brought up before, but I wanted to revisit the issue over my extremely troublesome 1777 Charleville.

I clean it, I oil it heavily for storage (not petroleum based), and I put it away just like every other musket I own, but for whatever reason this little bdonkeyard absolutely refuses to stop rusting. It's never anything major, but I'm getting sick of a weekly breakdown; and I do mean that literally, every Sunday I find myself stripping down a musket I haven't even shot to correct all the random rust accruing. Last week pinpricks of rust appeared on the buttplate. This week it's pinpricks on the ramrod. A few weeks ago, pin pricks of rust on the barrel. I scour it aggressively every time I find it, but I'm wondering why the heck this SPECIFIC gun attracts rust. And more importantly, how I can i) address the problem (IE is steel wool the best method?), ii) protect the steel (long-term), iii) prevent rust from returning.


Why any nation would not blue their weapons is quite beyond me, and I'm getting to the point where if this bloody musket doesn't stop rusting, I'm going to nix the historical accuracy and have it cerakoted (I know, I'm a monster). I should note right now I'm a shooter, not a reenactor, so it's not as horrible as it sounds gentlemen. I'd very much like to keep it in original condition, but truly, I am fed up with wasting a whole day off every week to donate to fixing problems that shouldn't exist. If this is normal I pity the French quartermaster and armorers in charge of storing these, good lord what a mess that would be... I probably would have volunteered for front line duty just to avoid the incessant cleaning.

Beyond help actually cleaning it, some historical questions; did soldiers really have to deal with this on a daily basis? I can only imagine this problem gets way, way worse when muskets are left outside for weeks while on the march. So how did they deal with it?

Finally, why did the French and USA never adopt bluing (that is, until much, much later, far beyond the point where it was obvious blued was better)? It has clear advantages, are there disadvantages to consider? Seems to my eyes that it would be well worth it to save your soldiers hours and hours of cleaning. Not to mention hours and hours of complaining to you!

I was recently at an Army/Navy surplus store and watched the owner open a crate of 1943 M-1 bayonets. They were coated with cosmoline and after 70+ years were pristine. I know cosmoline is petroleum based, but maybe it's worth a try. I believe it even comes in a spray.

 

[ikesdad]

Try Ballistol. Not well known in this country but is used to wipe down (among other uses) firearms elsewhere.

 

[Patrick H]

Try Renaissance wax. Several coats, buffed back by hand each time. It is pretty amazing stuff. You might still need to rewax every few months, but it would be an improvement.

 

[thomas.emard]

Jim: My very first gun (and my all-time favorite weapon) was the Mosin 91/30. I'm very familiar with cosmoline! But I had no idea it was still made, where do you get it? I figured cosmoline died with the same USSR that hoarded the Mosins in the first place. That would be good for VERY long term storage, but it's not practical if you want to fire the weapon in the next 5 years

Ikes: I do use Ballistol, liberally, on all my black powder guns. My revolvers are fine, my muskets, rifles, carbines, all fine. But every time I open the safe, there sits the '77, and yet more pinpricks of rust.

Patrick: I've never even heard of that, where do you get it? Any idea what it's made of? I've never dealt with wax before, is 'buffing' anything specific?


Cheers for the answers gentlemen! I'm on the way to Home Depot to get a new polishing head for my dremel, since steel wool doesn't seem to be stopping it.

 

[Jimklag]

Jim: My very first gun (and my all-time favorite weapon) was the Mosin 91/30. I'm very familiar with cosmoline! But I had no idea it was still made, where do you get it? I figured cosmoline died with the same USSR that hoarded the Mosins in the first place. That would be good for VERY long term storage, but it's not practical if you want to fire the weapon in the next 5 years

Ikes: I do use Ballistol, liberally, on all my black powder guns. My revolvers are fine, my muskets, rifles, carbines, all fine. But every time I open the safe, there sits the '77, and yet more pinpricks of rust.

Patrick: I've never even heard of that, where do you get it? Any idea what it's made of? I've never dealt with wax before, is 'buffing' anything specific?


Cheers for the answers gentlemen! I'm on the way to Home Depot to get a new polishing head for my dremel, since steel wool doesn't seem to be stopping it.

Here is a link.
http://www.cosmolinedirect.com

 

[captaindrew]

How do you store it? Do you display it or keep it in a case? I keep mine in my safe and don't have a problem, don't think the humidity gets to them as much. Maybe try a heavier oil for storage even if you have to go with a petroleum based oil and clean it off when you go to shoot it. And yes this was a battle in the field. The troops on both sides did take good care of their weapons, I'm sure it was a daily chore.

 

[D.H. Hill]

The regulations only called for muskets to be oiled, and decried polishing as "pernicious", but in practice many men polished them with rottenstone, the rammer, or wood ashes. This only works long-term, though, if you have to handle and clean the thing daily.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

I've used RIG #2 rust inhibitor for customer's firearms that stay in my shop for a while (high humidity in the summer) and for my firearms that I've stored away, with zero problems, but it's petroleum based. After spraying it on, it evaporates after a day and leaves a non-sticky invisible coating on the metal parts. You can spray the internals and a week or two, or 6 months down the road or whatever, you can take your firearm out and use it without cleaning off the inhibitor from any parts. I just recently found out about an Australian made, food grade, non-petroleum based inhibitor called INOX MX3 which is getting superb reviews from users in the online firearms message boards. I think I might give that stuff a try just to see if it's as good as RIG #2.

 

[BillO]

Try Renaissance wax. Several coats, buffed back by hand each time. It is pretty amazing stuff. You might still need to rewax every few months, but it would be an improvement.

I use plain Bowling Ally wax. You can buy it anywhere. It comes as a paste. Put it on everything, lock, stock and barrel.

 

[thomas.emard]

-Jim: Oh my goodness... even if I didn't plan to use it, I'm going to have to get a bucket of cosmoline just to put with the Mosins.


-Drew: That's the real mystery, and I wish I could figure it out. It's stored in an 8 gun safe that is specifically bare steel or otherwise 'unprotected' gun. Other safe residents for example, 1861 Springfield, Brown Bess 1st Model, 1728 Charleville, 1842 Springfield... none of the others have this issue at all.


-Hill: So if I were carrying this daily, what would be my actions to keep it rust-free?


-Copperhead: Never heard of either of them. Please let me know how the Australian stuff works out, but in the meantime I'll check out RIG.


-Bill: What are the differences in ingredients between the two waxes? Or are all waxes more or less the same, in their function for black powder cleanliness? Also, do you shoot with the wax on or clean that off first?


Again, cheers for the helpful replies everyone. Armed with this new knowledge, I might just establish a rust-free safe once again.

 

[JOHN42768]

I would be hesitant using cosmoline unless you were going to store for an extended period . That can be mean and nasty to remove after it's been on long. How about CLP?

 

[Patrick H]

Patrick: I've never even heard of that, where do you get it? Any idea what it's made of? I've never dealt with wax before, is 'buffing' anything specific?

I first heard about the product right here on a weapons forum. It is, apparently, one of the "go-to" conservation products for museums. I've used it on steel and on wood (in other words, lock stock and barrel). I bought mine on Amazon.com. It's about three times the cost of other paste waxes, but a little bit goes a very long way.

When I said "buffing" I just meant the process of wiping off the residue. The wax will dry to a thin haze, which you wipe off with a clean cloth. It's rather like hand waxing your car, without so much rubbing. On an item like a knife, a chisel, or a gun, you can build up two or three coats of protection pretty easily.

I have lots of metal tools in a basement shop. I've always used wax to protect them. It seems like the Renaissance Wax lasts a bit longer than other waxes.

 

[moosedog]

I second the use of the Renaissance wax. It will enhance the weapons appearance while protecting it.

 

[DixieRifles]

Try Ballistol. Not well known in this country but is used to wipe down (among other uses) firearms elsewhere.

I was just going to mention that. I just bought several cans of this "water-soluable oil" and still learning about it.
I recently posted a thread about it and recieved several comments that you should read.

 

[Specster]

Try Renaissance wax. Several coats, buffed back by hand each time. It is pretty amazing stuff. You might still need to rewax every few months, but it would be an improvement.

I know fro your many posts that you only have the best interest of others in your heart, but sometimes we listen or read someone who has their own motives. WD 40 is a great product for the right applications....yet if you apply it you can bank on it being gone in 1 week.

 

[Specster]

I think Linseed il is held in high regard but I am almost sure there are better

 

[Specster]

Try Renaissance wax. Several coats, buffed back by hand each time. It is pretty amazing stuff. You might still need to rewax every few months, but it would be an improvement.

I thought natural wax was a great idea and it seemed to work short term but many people brought to my attention that wax basically traps water adjacent to steel which leads to rust....bottom line - it does not work

 

[thomas.emard]

John: Indeed, cosmoline would be if I were arming an 18th century army, but it was going to be a few years before the guns were needed. I still want a bucket of it though.

Patrick: Cheers for the explanation, I've started looking into it in more detail, sharing what I've found out below:

Specster, you're correct (by my amateur knowledge of chemistry). Natural wax does indeed trap moisture. What's worse, some of them are slightly acidic, such as beeswax, and will damage the weapon over time. However, Renaissance Wax among others don't seem to have any natural ingredients at all. Wax refined from petroleum (microcrystalline wax) is PH neutral at the very least, meaning it won't damage your firearm over time. I'd have to look into moisture entrapment.




So now, my question is, just what is Renaissance Wax? The primary ingredient seems to be microcrystalline wax, and I'm curious if they genuinely provide a product that improves upon that, or if they just re-brand basic wax, because there are similar (far, far cheaper) products out there that tout the same basic ingredient.

 

[Patrick H]

As to whether you can get the same ingredients in a less expensive brand, I have no idea. As to whether the product is fairly priced, it seems to me that it's chump change compared to the cost of a fine antique firearm. As to whether the product will work for you, you'll just have to try it. I can tell you this much: It won't hurt your firearm, and if you're not happy with it and you start seeing rust again the next time you check your rifle, just put a little mineral spirits on a rag and wipe off the wax. Then go back to using the frequent scouring and re-oiling that you've been doing. In other words, you're not going to be worse off for having tried it.

I tried it because two of the historic firearms experts here on our forums recommended it highly. I haven't been disappointed. I use the product on antiques that will be stored or displayed but not fired. And, as I reported earlier, I use the product on some tools in my basement shop.

On firearms that I use frequently, I rely on conventional gun oils and stock finishes. I don't have the same sort of rust problem that you report, so I don't know what else to suggest. I don't believe anything is fool proof. I think any product is going to require some re-application once in a while.